POC President Election

[Roadkingcoupe]

JB -"Yes, we do have a website and forum and yes--it does not generate the traffic this site does...but then we don't have the bantering and bickering I find on this and other MoPar related websites, either."

With that logic the POC should stay small and full of like minded individuals who are not allowed to have an original thought. Kind of like an "OLD BOYS' club.

What I would like to see is the POC revisit their mission statement.

Something like...the POC remains dedicated to the correct and authentic restoration of original Plymouths. At the same time we appreciate and welcome other Plymouth owners who may have modified vehicles. In an attempt for the continued existence of ALL old Plymouths. Our mission statement is to keep these wonderful cars on the road and in the public view, and to welcome as many interested members as possible.

Believe me the next "fight" wont be between or on the POC and the P15-D24 forums. It will be to keep these vehicles "legal" to drive on the public roads. If not in the US elsewhere legislation is inching closer to banishing these cars from the roadways all together.

This forum is going through a couple of issues which are more of a result of the diverse and OPEN nature of the discussion. Pointing a finger at a large diverse P15-D24 membership that are allowed to speak freely is not the same as comparing to the POC forum which as you said "does not generate the traffic this site does".

I am honest and genuine when it comes to this issue. I thought that the P15-D24 site was a great alternative to the POC (and it is) I personally welcome Jim B to this site, his knowledge is truly an asset we are lucky he decided to post on the P15-D24 forum. However, the POC is now posting on the P15-D24 to continue claiming they are open and inclusive. How did that happen? Times change and so should the POC!

p.s. as stated earlier I own stock original cars!

[Frank Elder]

Look's like he posted his mission statement, and has no rebuttal...

[james curl]

Some of us start out with a common car, a four door special delux 48 Plymouth which has hardly increased in value since I bought mine in 1986. I enjoy driving my car on the open road and have a need for modern brakes and gears plus I intend to install a T-5 transmission in my car this spring so that I can enjoy it all the more. The cost of a used overdrive transmission seems to be a bit over the top,as I can buy Cheverolet overdrive transmissions in excellent shape for less than $500.00 and have not found much in the way of MoPar overdrives for less than $1200.00 to $1600.00 plus shipping. Some wonder why the four door cars end up as street rods or rat rods, it does not seem to affect the value to put a V8 engine and automatic transmission in them for less cost than to rebuild the flathead and install an overdrive. Now with modern brakes you have a car you can drive cross country at 70 mph. I cannot see putting $10,000 or more into a car that will not return more than $5000.00 to my wife when I die. I am getting some pressure from a local POC member to join their new chapter and he said that they would welcome me, I asked about the national club and he did not know. He has a very nice 47 delux club coupe which is basically stock except for seat belts and turn signals so he qualifies.

[Young Ed]

Here's the scoop on that. You have to belong to the national to belong to a region. Beyond that they don't care what kind of car you bring to a local meeting. Yes their official position is complete factory restos but they dont control that at the locals. We have a few slightly modified cars in our local. They come to the meetings and drive on our tours and have just as much fun as the rest of us. So I'd say if you enjoy the group of guys in your local area join in and don't worry your car is modified.

[Plymouthy Adams]

The POC is an entity in and of themselves with a charter. The charter sets/mandates the rules of order. The local meets are set up and funded by their orginazation. The idea of tailgating at/among the POC event can cause for lots of hards feeling as the POC brunts the cost of facility and the hospitality room. We have similar by-laws concerning non members within other car clubs I have been a member of in the past. I did attend the Charlotte meet and viewed the POC exhibit and the tailgate at the same time as a spectator in both groups. I did not show/park a car. The Charlotte group did let the tailgaters park..I do not know if this was out of courtesy when they arrive or prearranged..hopefully it was pre-arranged.

I cannot see how the charter could allow modified now that I think of it..especially a judge catagory, which I do not think the group is pushing for asn the questions, do they cut it off for modified flatties, Mopar mods only, do we throw out the GM distirbutors, electric fuel pump and 12 volt alternator ungrades..what what spot is the line drawn, will there be a debate over a single infraction of the 11th mod if only 10 were permitted.

To go to the POC and drive a non-judged car would be ideal and what most are doing. But is it fair that the local host pay the cost of the facilites. I do not recall the POC having a large draw of off the street spectators either..I do not recall any fee to walk about and view their cars. In all fairness and I think most would consent to, would be a modest fee for a parking area off to the side. But then this is my opinion and probably will draw fire from ohters with contrary thoughts.

Anyway..to sum it up...should an event be held wether national or local..out of repsect one should solicit permission prior to the event for possible parking in/among the registered vehicles.

[greg g]

I will endeavor to make a few points and keep it as short as possible.

Tailgating, has been held on Friday evenings of the events I have attended. As far as I know most of the attendees were registered for the event, and the get together is not in conflict with any club events, with the possible exception of the Judges meeting. Any one attending is encouraged and welcomed to stop by for some bench racing and a beverage. Other wise the time is a diner on your own deal. At the Detroit event they did have a display only area which was adjacent to the show paddock and included several cars of different makes and non members. I believe we had a forum participant parking his Desoto there while he checked out the Plymouths. There were a few other cars there also. The Maryland meet provided no such accomodation and in one case turned a couple folks away.

I did hear at the Maryland meet that judges were to give original parts precidence in judging meaning a servicable but somewhat soiled headliner should be given a break over one that was obviously a new stock type replacement. Origial paint over a repaint. Thats nice but judges should also be aware between the differences between a Deluxe and Special deluxe which is not always the case.

At Vermont, I got 0 points for my engine. This not because its a chevy v8 or a /6,or dual carbs but because it's a later model of the same engine. As the practice of swapping engines was common practice in the 40 and 50 to keep a car on the road, my feeling is that a flat head 6 is a flat head 6, and should at least get some points for being a mopar, after that I can understand deductions for carbs and intakes, ehausts, alterators, and other items.

And I firmly believe that a car used as a car and driven to an event should get a few bonus points over a trailered in. The couple who drove thier P15 from California to Maryland were clearly the winners of that event.

I get a lot of comments about my bullseye headlamps being incorrect for the car. OK not available till 51 or so, I get it. But chances are if I went to the dealership in 52 with a blown headlamp, I would have the choice to install the upgraded piece supplied by the manufacturer.

Also had points deducted for a base coat clear coat paint job, which my car does ot have. When I asked about it I was told it didn't matter whatever it was it was too shiney.

As I will probably keep going to events, as a social event, I will probably register, so I have parking, and enter my car as a display only vehicle and not trouble the judges to evaluate it, because I like it the way it is.

The closest region is 200 miles away so I can't see joining a region, nor ca I support the national, as my vehicle do not conform, nor will it ever, to the ideals of the orgaization.

So now I guess I gotta shut up about the POC and enjoy my POCO status as often as I care to, and until they refuse to take my registration. for the event.

[Jim Benjaminson]

First, my condolences to Norm's family -- I was unaware of his passing. Like a lot of clubs (and internet forum's) we are a graying crowd. I've lost a lot of good "old car" friends over the years. I haven't posted a reply because for the past 14 hours, I've been out of town.

I do want to apologize to the member who showed up at the Detroit meet with the '41 Plodge. There were a LOT of problems at the Detroit meet and I can guarantee you, had I been present some of those problems would not have happened. Members were denied entrance to the car show (and yes, we lost some members because of it) but that was the fault of certain local region officers. Thankfully Jeff Godshall (a friend of mine and fellow author, researcher/historian) was there to see that the Plodge got on the show field. These cars -- Plodges and PlySoto's -- (names given to them by Jeff by the way!) ARE recognized for judging at club meets. The club has an extensive judging guide book and these cars are listed as being eligible. But when locals choose to ignore the guidelines, there is little that can be done. The Detroit people even refused to let the "High-N'Mighty" replica of the Ramchargers first Hemi-powered Plymouth on the show grounds! Probably one of the most famous cars ever and it was relegated to a side lot -- where it drew more than its share of attention! To say I was unhappy when I heard what had happened at Detroit is an understatement but not being there, there was nothing I could do about it after the fact.

A quick note back to "judging". No where does the club constitution say you cannot belong to the club if you have a modified car. No where does it say you cannot register to attend a meet with a modified car. No where does it say that you cannot have a modified car judged. As noted in several postings since my first comments here - some cars with modifications did win trophies at Maryland. Points are deducted for non-authentic items, etc., but that doesn't mean the car can't win. We don't call in the crusher when a modified car shows up!

The comments relating to 225 cars at the first Detroit meet and only 75 cars this past Detroit meet - remember, the price of gas had a lot to do with the small turnout. As for the various comments on judging, all I can say is - not everyone is as knowledgable as they should be. Unfortunately some of these people end up as judges! Mistakes are made. Huge mistakes were made at Detroit.

I do agree that a lot of people - perhaps a majority? - say they would rather drive their car and enjoy it, rather than going through a judging meet. I find a lot of members saying they don't want their car judged "because its not good enough" -- or they won't come to a meet for the same reason. Meets should be fun, a time to enjoy your car, be it a Plymouth, Ford, Chevy or whatever, a time to meet old friends and make new ones. And to go home with a good feeling. Last summer Lanny Knutson, my friend Bill and myself drove Lanny's '49 to the meet in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. 750 miles one way in one day in a '49 Plymouth. No trailer queen, that '49 has been driven coast to coast from east to west, and north to south. It never missed a beat (o.k., it vapor locked on the way home one time under "my" watch). It didn't win any trophies but we had a blast driving it both ways. It was Bill's first Plymouth meet and I'll bet it won't be his last. And thats the way it should be.....

One more comment regarding the previous postings, regarding on-line credit card payment for membership. At one time we did have a secure website for this. We lost that capability and our current webmaster - who donates his time and energy at no charge to the club - hasn't had the time to pursue the matter. It was very handy for me as membership secretary to receive on-line payments and hopefully in the future we can again have a secure site to do so.

[Roadkingcoupe]

Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. As I said earlier Jim B. is a an asset to this forum and also a true gentleman. Apology accepted.

Roadkingcoupe

p.s. check out the High N'Mighty. Awesome.

[Young Ed]

Well said Jim. I think the most important thing we can take from this is there's no point complaining about the past. The best thing anyone can do it observe the mistakes and make a plan to avoid repeating them.

[MacTexas]

I do agree that a lot of people - perhaps a majority? - say they would rather drive their car and enjoy it, rather than going through a judging meet. I find a lot of members saying they don't want their car judged "because its not good enough" -- or they won't come to a meet for the same reason. Meets should be fun, a time to enjoy your car, be it a Plymouth, Ford, Chevy or whatever, a time to meet old friends and make new ones. And to go home with a good feeling. Last summer Lanny Knutson, my friend Bill and myself drove Lanny's '49 to the meet in Oconomowoc, Wisconsin. 750 miles one way in one day in a '49 Plymouth. No trailer queen, that '49 has been driven coast to coast from east to west, and north to south. It never missed a beat (o.k., it vapor locked on the way home one time under "my" watch). It didn't win any trophies but we had a blast driving it both ways. It was Bill's first Plymouth meet and I'll bet it won't be his last. And thats the way it should be.....

I have just spent the last hour reading all these posts and I own a modified Desoto so I do not have a dog in the fight.

I have quoted the above paragraph to point out to Jim that maybe he should consider changing the bylaws of the club. The bylaws seem to present the notion that modified cars are not welcome. It seems like a simple change so that zealous members will allow every car on the fairgrounds in future meets and the "majority" can have fun with their cars and not be criticized for having a wrong hubcap.

I enjoy old cars and just had to comment with a simple solution to the problem.

[daddyo23]

Well said Jim. I think the most important thing we can take from this is there's no point complaining about the past. The best thing anyone can do it observe the mistakes and make a plan to avoid repeating them.

Spoken like a true future President:D:D

[LAKOTA169]

The High-N-Mighty was set up right in front of the hotel entrance along with its trailer and display. Anybody coming from the hotel or other parking lots (hotel guests) had to go right past the display to get to the show field. The person who was turned away from the show/judging, didn't register for the meet, showed up Saturday morning after the show was setup wanting to enter the show/judging. This wasn't the first time he has done this. In the past he was allowed to enter.

[Jim Benjaminson]

Not to beat a dead horse to death - but there were 4 members turned away, not just the 82 year old man who drove over from Jackson, Michigan that morning. NOBODY should ever be turned away.

[Roadkingcoupe]

Not to beat a dead horse to death - but there were 4 members turned away, not just the 82 year old man who drove over from Jackson, Michigan that morning. NOBODY should ever be turned away.

+1

I read your books.

You read my mind!

I believe this is the attitude I spoke of.

No reason to turn ANYONE away.

Thank you for clearly stating your position. I realize that might cause some "friction" for you.

For anyone that is unaware of Jim Benjaminson's "contribution" to Old Chrysler made vehicles. Here is a quote that covers some of Jim B's Mopar history.

"Jim Benjaminson: Author, Plymouth Bulletin Editor, and Allpar Contributor

Before his first birthday, Jim Benjaminson was photographed standing on the front fender

of his Dad's 1934 Plymouth coupe--on his third birthday, he was photographed standing in front of his Dad's 1940 Plymouth. Although the original 1934 is long gone, Jim still has that same 1940 Plymouth -- and a few other Plymouths, including two 1934s, (along with several Brand X cars) to keep the '40 company.

Although his Dad was service manager for a Chevrolet-Pontiac agency (there are several of the "other P cars" in the collection), Jim's first love has remained those early Plymouths. "I've always been around things mechanical"--either at the dealership where Dad worked, around his uncle's scrap yard or at his other uncle's farm, there was always something fascinating about machinery, be it old or new.

Like most gearheads, Jim was the one who talked about cars in school, who drew cars when he should have been studying and snuck his car magazines into study hall inside his books. But it was old cars that really got him into the hobby at an early age, as he began collecting cars in the early 1960s. A common statement is "I can kick myself for not buying (insert any type or year of car here) when I could have bought it for little or nothing."

But it was the lack of information available back then that led him to researching the history of Plymouth and started him on his writing career which now includes three books on the history of Plymouth and DeSoto--and with more in the works. Jim joined the Plymouth 4 & 6 Cylinder Owners Club back in 1967. Since that time, he's held the position of membership secretary for the club since 1974, served 7 years as the editor of the Plymouth Bulletin magazine and currently holds the dual positions of membership secretary and treasurer.

During his years in the hobby, researching various events Jim has met with or talked on the phone with "famous" people of the hobby, such as Sullivan Richardson, Arnold Whitaker and Kenneth Van Hee of the Richardson Pan American Highway Expedition (Detroit to Cape Horn in a '41 Plymouth), Ole Fahlin of the Fahlin-Swanson Plymouth powered airplane, Channing Powell of the Powell Brothers who built their Sport Wagons on revamped '41 Plymouth chassis, Irma Darre Brandt, the first Norwegian female driver to compete in the Monte Carlo Rally, Wally Parks of NHRA fame and driver of "Suddenly", the 1957 Plymouth Bonneville speed record car and George Stecher, Chrysler turbine car engineer and driver of the car in race scenes for the movie "The Lively Set".

Though Jim was too modest to say anything, he has written several books, including the Illustrated Plymouth & DeSoto Buyers Guide, Plymouth Commercial Vehicles: Photo Archive, and Plymouth 1946-1959, which is reprinted at Allpar."

I wonder if that is Jim B in the photo below

Edited February 3, 2010 by Roadkingcoupe
photo added

[1940plymouth]

I also can attest to Jim B's helpfullness to me. I joined the POC in 1994, and Jim has been very helpfull to me over the years with questions that I have emailed him about. He always has been prompt and very courtious in his replies.

I am also very pleased to have Jim being a member of this community

Bob

[Roadkingcoupe]

"THE OFFICIAL POLICY OF THE PLYMOUTH OWNERS CLUB, INC. IS TO PROMOTE THE CORRECT AND AUTHENTIC RESTORATION OF THE PLYMOUTH BRAND AND TO DISCOURAGE ANY ACTIVITIES, IDEAS OR PHILOSOPHIES CONTRARY TO THESE AIMS."

I can only speak for myself, but the problem is not the first part of the mission statement. It appears to me that the second half of the mission statement directly pits the POC members against the P15-D24 member's interests.

"....AND TO DISCOURAGE ANY ACTIVITIES, IDEAS OR PHILOSOPHIES CONTRARY TO THESE AIMS."

It is possible that the word "discourage" was taken literally by some members. Personally I do not believe that "discourage" is an appropriate word in a mission statement.

There is a wealth of info at the table. The POC for stock restoration and the P15-D24 site for "ACTIVITIES, IDEAS OR PHILOSOPHIES" that are progressive, ingenious and creative. Could you imagine the body of knowledge combined? All these enthusiasts openly engaging and learning from each other? Lets include everyone interested in these wonderful Plymouth vehicles.

Thank you.

[BobT-47P15]

I had the pleasure of meeting Jim at the car show in Tulsa in 2007,

the one related to the digging up of the 57 Belvedere. He was looking

over the car and getting some info for his convertible list.

[blueskies]

It is possible that the word "discourage" was taken literally by some members. Personally I do not believe that "discourage" is an appropriate word in a mission statement.

I couldn't agree more... The word "discourage" encourages a "them vs us" attitude. In my judgment, this mindset limits the POC to a dwindling few.

I've only been to one event with my '50, I parked it with the POC group at the Tulsa Buried Belvedere outdoor show. That's the former POC president's hardtop parked behind my car...

My car is stock aside from engine mods, and when I lifted the hood there was a crowd under there most of the day. They all wanted to hear it run, know where I found the speed parts, etc. There certainly wasn't any discouragement that I noticed from the POC membership at the show... makes me wonder if the general membership is even aware of the mission statement. Of course, this was not a judged show field, (and I wouldn't have bothered to attend if it had been) so maybe that made a difference.

Jim B. left his card on my car while I was out looking for lunch... I was sorry I missed him...

Pete

[Roadkingcoupe]

Discourage

Verb

1.discourage - try to prevent; show opposition to; "We should discourage this practice among our youth"

deter

disapprove, reject - deem wrong or inappropriate; "I disapprove of her child rearing methods"

2.discourage - deprive of courage or hope; take away hope from; cause to feel discouraged

3 discourage - admonish or counsel in terms of someone's behavior; "I warned him not to go too far"; "I warn you against false assumptions"; "She warned him to be quiet"

[Johnny S]

Jim .... thanks for the comment regarding on-line payment for dues. Yes, credit cards would be nice and would probably cover the vast majority of users and I do know that it would require a secure link .... but it is fairly easy and doesn't require a secure site or web link to use PayPal as a way to transfer funds and make payments. However, the person seeking to pay for membership via PayPal WOULD have to have a PayPal account ... which not everyone does. But it would be a start. You might note on GTK's site here under "forum donation info" how easy it is to make a contribution to the site via PayPal ... just a couple clicks and GTK has "got money" .... and that transaction contains the person information at least .... and could include individual car information at well if that were required. So .. that might be an interim step just short of a secure site but useful to many of us.

Your comment was: "One more comment regarding the previous postings, regarding on-line credit card payment for membership. At one time we did have a secure website for this. We lost that capability and our current webmaster - who donates his time and energy at no charge to the club - hasn't had the time to pursue the matter. It was very handy for me as membership secretary to receive on-line payments and hopefully in the future we can again have a secure site to do so."

[Young Ed]

That adds another aspect of would the membership be willing to pay higher dues to cover the fees associated with taking a CC either directly or through paypal.

[blueskies]

I set up a subscription payment system on my new willys forum several weeks ago through paypal. It took all of 20 minutes... No need for a secure site and subscribers can pay with a credit card even without a paypal account

The system keeps track of the subscribers and sends them a renewal invoice when it is time for renewal. Very easy to set up and implement into an existing website.

I would pay the small percentage to cover paypal's cut for the convenience of renewing with a few clicks. No postage and hassle of getting something in the mail.

Pete

[Johnny S]

Good point Pete .... I had forgotten that PayPal allows secure credit card transactions as well. As to cost ..... I get enough mail so any less mail would be a plus. I think that an automated renewal OR reminder would be worth the extra dollar or so and I certainly would keep a mail-in option available for those who would choose that as an option. And, in lieu of a multiple year renewal option (which I think should be an option as well ... it creates a better member retention situation!) I would set up an automated annual renewal.