aero3113 Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Plymouth-1950-Special-Deluxe-P19-P20-front-disc-brake_W0QQitemZ220316552056QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item220316552056&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A543%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatS.... Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 From the ad on eBay... "These cold-rolled steel adapters bolt straight on to your drum spindles, without any modification whatsoever to the spindles. Some other conversions require you to drill and tap you spindle and cross-arm; we feel this is very wrong and engineered a solid solution." I wonder what makes drilling and tapping "very wrong"??? There is enough meat there so that there really isn't a problem drilling and tapping those holes. This is just a bit of "scare" tactics on their part. I like Charlies and the former PlyDo because of the off the shelf parts in the event you need to replace any parts down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 That is the kit I went with, go with Charlies it uses a much more readly avalible parts than the scarebird kit. I called them to let them know their were 2 different calipers with the same part # but the one does not fit, and they said I was nuts, I asked if they wanted pics but no!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49plymouthdotcom Posted December 1, 2008 Report Share Posted December 1, 2008 I have the scarebird kit and will be installing it on my car soon. I asked a lot of questions from each disk conversion vendor before choosing to use this kit. Here's the rusty hope kit. and the scarebird kit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolliejoe Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Mocking up the scarebird kit and have run into a problem. The caliper holes are too high and the pads don't line up to the rotor. Wish they had a number to call but will have to contact them through email. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 congratulations!!! you got the caliper that does not fit. you can grind the brackett and it will fit but the caliper will not slide.. also don't use the brake hoses that screw into the calipers use ones with banjo fittings, other wise you will need to grind the king pin boss down to clear the hose then when the pads wear they will hit again. I will have to post up some pics for ya all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolliejoe Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 How did you figure out there was two different sets of calipers? The only way a different one would work is if the "ears" were cast higher. These do slide after some filing on the bracket (per the instructions). I put the wheel on for fun and it hits the caliper because it's sitting to high. Don't have the hoses yet but by looking at the setup I was worried about clearance issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olddaddy Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 I've been making my kits for over 12 years now. I've done hundreds of conversions. There is nothing "very wrong" with opening up a hole by less than "1/16" and tapping it for a fine thread bolt. I don't understand the idea of putting other peoples work down to make yours look somehow better. Why cheapen yourself by making cheap shots? Mine is good, it's installed on my car that my family rides in regularly, I know it's good and safe. I offer full tech support via email on every purchase. I've had one person in 12 years return a kit and it was not due to failure on the kit, he simply was not capable of the conversion. Anybody interested, my kits are on sale for $200 including shipping. That makes the kit about $180 with $20 for shipping. I'm not sure, but I think that makes it the cheapest on on the market as well. You need new brakes for Christmas, buy now!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Are your calipers new repops or rebuilt originals? The repops would not work on mine and that was after I milled them down and ground on the brackett. hoses are a problem they come straight out at the king pin. I wished I had gone with yours Charlie, this one is full of problems, still not sure about his mounting bolts with most of the head milled off. I also like how yours uses the chevy calipers rather than the e-body dodge much eaiser to come by and cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Maybe thats why they call them SCARE bird...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Elder Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Scarey to me is the fact they won't acknowledge the 2 different calipers under 1 part no#. Thats just unacceptable, if a customer told my boss that he would want to know who the idiot was that didn't do his homework before marketing said product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarebird Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 We had another customer point out this post and need to set a few things straight. 1. We are working with Rollie to find out what is not working and a fix. We have sold quite a few of these with no issue other than the "other" caliper issue. Rollie did not put in the other spacer - hence it will affect the fitment. The rotor may also be undersized in diameter as evidenced by the picture. 2. Some of you seem offended that we do not feel that tapping the existing holes on the spindle is a good solution and point this out in our advertising. I did not mention Rusty Hope by name in this ad; there is at least one other supplier for this application that requires you to tap the holes (and do some heavy grinding on the spindle). We were called in by a local rod shop after they tried to use the latter kit and it failed. They asked us if we could do better. We engineered a strict bolt on - no grinding or tapping (and since this load is almost all shear, 0.105 of grade 8 bolt is much more than enough to do the job). Back in the early part of the last century hand cranking a motor was the norm, with the possibility of injury or death in the event of a backfire. Do you think when the self-starter was perfected it was not touted in advertising? 3. We got beat up on Moparchat.com a few years ago for using GM calipers on a Mopar application (1962-72 B and 70-72 E bodys). We then changed the design to use 1994-99 Ram calipers; and customers whined the parts were too expensive. So I decided to hell with it and use whatever works the best. We have a large inventory of calipers and rotors of all shapes and sizes, from 1969 GTO to 2005 Mustang. In this case we found the 70-74 E body caliper works best: compact, excellent hose routing and it is Mopar - only drawback is it runs about 20 extra per unit - and availability unlike stated by others it is next day at your nearest NAPA or rockauto or partsamerica or autozone or... 4. The phantom caliper. Since I talked to dezeldoc I checked and am still undecided. Hollander, Raybestos, NAPA say unh-uh - 70-74 E are the same. But Hollander shows the 73-74 spindle to be different (?). And I have a March 1980 dated Wagner brake book that shows a 70-72/73-74 split. Without the two different pieces on my bench I withhold judgment. Neither of the two E body guys I know (one a professional restorer) buys that they are different - but in the sales of almost 5000 conversion sets I have seen weirder things... 5. The customer is not always right. Hence we try to make our stuff as foolproof as possible - but as we said in the Navy "foolproof doesn't mean sailor-proof". We do make errors and try to get to the root of the problem with the customer then fix it. We kaizen our stuff; always looking to improve the product and instructions. I believe that is enough for my first post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolliejoe Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Alright, after going at it again I see that my mock up skills suck. I didn't install the new inner bearing+adapter on to the spindle because it was tight and didn't want it to get stuck. Add to that I didn't tighten the caliper bolts completely and that all adds up to misalignment. I did ask over at Moparts about the difference in calipers and instead DoctorDiff pointed out that late Mopar '70's rotors came in two flavors, 10.95" and 11.75". 11.75" rotors would be a better fit but since I've corrected my mock up I've got ~1/16" to spare where the pad meets the top of the rotor. My stock 1951 15" wheel is still rubbing the caliper so I tried another wheel and it rubs only half way through rotation. As the pad wears I would gain the clearance needed but I do think a little file work on the caliper would correct this problem. About the hose I'm going to ask about the best way to route. I'll post a follow up. Again I blew it with my first mock up, this kit does work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezeldoc Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 We had another customer point out this post and need to set a few things straight.1. We are working with Rollie to find out what is not working and a fix. We have sold quite a few of these with no issue other than the "other" caliper issue. Rollie did not put in the other spacer - hence it will affect the fitment. The rotor may also be undersized in diameter as evidenced by the picture. 2. Some of you seem offended that we do not feel that tapping the existing holes on the spindle is a good solution and point this out in our advertising. I did not mention Rusty Hope by name in this ad; there is at least one other supplier for this application that requires you to tap the holes (and do some heavy grinding on the spindle). We were called in by a local rod shop after they tried to use the latter kit and it failed. They asked us if we could do better. We engineered a strict bolt on - no grinding or tapping (and since this load is almost all shear, 0.105 of grade 8 bolt is much more than enough to do the job). Back in the early part of the last century hand cranking a motor was the norm, with the possibility of injury or death in the event of a backfire. Do you think when the self-starter was perfected it was not touted in advertising? 3. We got beat up on Moparchat.com a few years ago for using GM calipers on a Mopar application (1962-72 B and 70-72 E bodys). We then changed the design to use 1994-99 Ram calipers; and customers whined the parts were too expensive. So I decided to hell with it and use whatever works the best. We have a large inventory of calipers and rotors of all shapes and sizes, from 1969 GTO to 2005 Mustang. In this case we found the 70-74 E body caliper works best: compact, excellent hose routing and it is Mopar - only drawback is it runs about 20 extra per unit - and availability unlike stated by others it is next day at your nearest NAPA or rockauto or partsamerica or autozone or... 4. The phantom caliper. Since I talked to dezeldoc I checked and am still undecided. Hollander, Raybestos, NAPA say unh-uh - 70-74 E are the same. But Hollander shows the 73-74 spindle to be different (?). And I have a March 1980 dated Wagner brake book that shows a 70-72/73-74 split. Without the two different pieces on my bench I withhold judgment. Neither of the two E body guys I know (one a professional restorer) buys that they are different - but in the sales of almost 5000 conversion sets I have seen weirder things... 5. The customer is not always right. Hence we try to make our stuff as foolproof as possible - but as we said in the Navy "foolproof doesn't mean sailor-proof". We do make errors and try to get to the root of the problem with the customer then fix it. We kaizen our stuff; always looking to improve the product and instructions. I believe that is enough for my first post. Why is it then when I called and talked to you, and told you about the calipers you said no way and blew me off?? I have been building cars for the past 30+ years and I am a heavy equipent mechanic by trade, so I think I know how to make things work. A friend of mine who has been collecting and restoring mopars for the past 40 years or more came over with a nos caliper in the box with a adapter included for retro fitting different years. that one went on perfect. I understand about the shear on the bolts, but the top one does not thread all the way to the end of the nut with the lock washer.the brake lines you list in your instructions are not going to work so I am using the banjo style so as not to have any problems with hitting the king pin boss. This is the first kit I have bought, I always make my own, but I thought it would be quicker to just buy the kit but no. and by the way I bought the parts at the local autozone and it took a week for them to get the calipers. if you want to talk to me and get any pics I have of it PM me. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 5. The customer is not always right. If I am "the customer" and spent the money I fully expect to be treated as such. I take offense to your statment above. I installed the Plydo kit (GM calipers, Mopar rotors) on my car several years ago and it works well. I did have to grind a nub off of the caliper and drill and tap the steering knuckle. Before I bought the "kit" I was aware of the fact I would have to do this. All of the parts required to install the Plydo kit were in stock at the local bubble pack auto parts store. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Elder Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Then as a swabbie you should have been taught to pay attention to detail, and to "sweat the small stuff". That is of course only prevelant if you want to listen to someone elses opinion instead of thinking yours is the only one that counts. You can always tell a sailor, but you can't tell him much, not a saying to be proud of. Frank Elder, AMH2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarebird Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Alright, after going at it again I see that my mock up skills suck. I didn't install the new inner bearing+adapter on to the spindle because it was tight and didn'twant it to get stuck. Add to that I didn't tighten the caliper bolts completely and that all adds up to misalignment... Again I blew it with my first mock up, this kit does work. Thank you for clearing that up. Only 1 in 5 customers bother to tell us they erred - and we wonder if there is a flaw in our product we do not know of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarebird Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Why is it then when I called and talked to you, and told you about the calipers you said no way and blew me off?... I understand about the shear on the bolts, but the top one does not thread all the way to the end of the nut with the lock washer.the brake lines you list in your instructions are not going to work so I am using the banjo style so as not to have any problems with hitting the king pin boss. Easy - the books said you were wrong, but like I mentioned earlier the 73-74's seem hazy*. I would like to see those pix - please email them to me at m@scarebird.com I also took note that in your case the upper bolt was short and have an order at Tacoma Screw for them I will modify - thanks. *We had a customer who had an early 1965 Pontiac - our 1965-66 version stuff did not fit because Pontiac machined the 65 spindle to accept 64 drum hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarebird Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 If I am "the customer" and spent the money I fully expect to be treated as such. I take offense to your statment above. I installed the Plydo kit (GM calipers, Mopar rotors) on my car several years ago and it works well. Guess what? your not - so your opinion does not matter to me. dezeldoc and rollies's opinion however does matter to me because they ARE my customers. Then as a swabbie you should have been taught to pay attention to detail, and to "sweat the small stuff". That is of course only prevelant if you want to listen to someone elses opinion instead of thinking yours is the only one that counts. Frank Elder, AMH2 I had to Google AMH2 to find out what that was... first hit was a guy who went down in a C2A Greyhound - all 26 lost: cause unknown. We research, test and build this stuff as best we can - stuff like this phantom caliper crop up on occasion and we deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 I will stick with Charlie and his winning kit..first I have never heard of Charlie taking a pop shot at a customer or potential customer. I am really glad you came on this forum and demonstated your heavy handed business tactics..am sure lots of business will be coming your way...and not to slam you or your company, I am happy to hear that those who are having problems are getting answers and possible fixes worked into the kits from you and your company..Personally..I believe I would have started my comments with a thank you to all persons who have had problems and brought this to our attention in order that we may make it right and engineer a better more troublefree kit for our future customers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Guess what? your not - so your opinion does not matter to me. dezeldoc and rollies's opinion however does matter to me because they ARE my customers.I had to Google AMH2 to find out what that was... first hit was a guy who went down in a C2A Greyhound - all 26 lost: cause unknown. We research, test and build this stuff as best we can - stuff like this phantom caliper crop up on occasion and we deal with it. Great answers. Do you now think you can count on me or anyone else who reads this to recommend your products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
49plymouthdotcom Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 In support of Scarebird: As some may remember I was looking for a disc kit that would work with the dropped uprights from Fatman Fabrications and work with the stock rims. I checked out the kits from Rusty Hope, Plydo, AAJ, ECI and Scarebird. Scarebird offered to mock up his kit with my dropped upright if I shipped it to him. We split the shipping, I paid one way he paid the other. He emailed photos of the mockup and his notes and suggestions for using the upright with his kit. I received my part back in the same condition it was in when I sent it. I had not even purchased his kit yet. I did buy the Scarebird kit as I felt it was the one that best fit what I wanted to do with my car. I am now starting to gather the brake parts. I found the rotors on Amazon for $29 each. The rest of the parts I'm getting from Napa. I'll have under $400 into the conversion (kit+brake parts). Any questions I have asked have been answered in a timely manner, usually within 24 hours and often within minutes. I am confident that if I have any trouble I'll get help from Scarebird, he hasn't failed me yet. I have nothing against Charlie or his kit and I have links to all of the suppliers mentioned above on my web site. It's a good thing that there is more than one person making these kits and we have options. rolliejoe: this kit does work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldguy48 Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 After reading these posts, I'm glad I decided to purchase Charlie's conversion kit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeBop138 Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Mark, first off I do have to agree with Don C. you have come on very strong and probably ticked a few people off. With that said I will stick up for you as you treated me very well when designing my bracket for the 52 Windsor. At that time I didn`t know of the others talked about on this forum. I was doing a Buick and Mark`s company came up and I contacted him. I sent a spindle set and after a couple of tries Mark came up with a perfect kit for my car. Crown Vic rotors and Mid 80`s GM calipiers. The hub from my drums fit perfect into the rotors and lined up with the old rivit holes to the already drilled and tapped holes on the rotor. Using banjo style hoses all went well. Mark didn`t even charge me for the time and cost of making the first set because he said I had helped so much in making it all work. I never paid a dime for anything. Hope all goes well for Mark and everbody concerned...Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodscavenger Posted December 4, 2008 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Wow......can I get some more popcorn please..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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