New B-3-B owner with some basic questions

[ktb]

My dad and I trailered our family's granite gray 1951 Dodge B-3-B-108 Pilot House with fluid drive and lowside bed from CA to TX last week, and I'm getting started on getting it running again after sitting ~25 years.  There are some key challenges that we could use some of the forum's sage advice on.

 

1. The keys have been lost.  I removed the ignition lock cylinder and am working on the passenger door lock cylinder (need a smaller flathead to remove the setscrew).  The gas cap is also lockable, but this is a non-original part, and we will probably just pick the lock and replace it.  If our local key shop is unable to do anything with the original lock cylinders, does anyone know of an online source for old mopar keys or cylinders?  Is there a recommended gas cap replacement?

 

2. Spark plug wires.  The O'Reilly webpage showed Standard Motor Products part # 3600 as direct replacement, but the Rock Auto info page on them shows wire lengths of 9"-11"-15", and measuring the old wires from the Dodge, I'm seeing 18"-21"-24" wires.  Is there a good set of longer cut-to-length/DIY plug wires available out there, or a source for custom-fit wires for our 218 engines?

 

3. 6V Battery.  For now I plan to leave the original 6V / positive ground / generator electrical system in place.  Are there any recommended 6V battery options out there (besides the $250 Optima Redtop 6V)?   

 

4. Original wheels are 15" with ancient 6.70-15 tube tires.  I plan to get 205/75R15 tires installed - is there any other inexpensive radial size (preferably taller but still narrow enough to fit on the original wheels) recommended? 

 

5. Radiator / cooling system.  Original radiator is cracked and overflow tube has a worn-through spot due to rubbing on the center hood section structure.  I believe the radiator cracked due to an incorrect positive-pressure cap being used.  I will have a local shop braze/clean/retest the original radiator and will source a new zero-pressure radiator cap.  Also the heater control valve (?), right rear corner of engine head, is badly corroded and will need replacement - any idea if these can be found or substituted?

 

6. Hand-starting crank nut hex size?  I'd like to try turning the engine over by hand but do not have a hand-starting crank.  Does anyone know the hex size of the outer part of the hand-starting crank nut so that I can try to rotate the engine by hand with a wrench or socket?

 

7. Brakes don't work.  Stiff brake pedal and stuck hand brake handle/cable (these I'll be addressing later, but just wanted to throw it out there for future discussion).  For the hand brake it looks like it's just the cable that is stuck - the local hand brake lever works, although the front of the driveshaft and hand brake lining are very oily from an apparent transmission leak.

 

8. Driveshaft stuck engaged.  Another long-term project.  Turning the rear wheels also spins the driveshaft.  The clutch pedal goes up and down with appropriate resistance, and the 3-speed column shifter shifts freely, but it would appear that the transmission is stuck in gear even with the clutch pedal depressed and shifter in neutral. 

 

I think that's enough for now. There are many challenges ahead, but I'm super-stoked to be starting on this project and look forward to sharing progress with the forum!  Thanks in advance!!

 

- Kyle

[moparfun]

Gotta Love it, Welcome to your new adventure. Right place to get answers, sounds like you got a plan. Get as many books that you can that cover your truck and post questions

[Dave72dt]

Try Standard # 3800 instead. It's for an 8 cyl and will have longer leads. If you want metal core wires try 3802 but it will cause problems with electronic ignition systems.

 

There are at least 4 standard size 6V lead-acid batteries, API classed as 1H, 2H and 4H each a bit physically bigger than the previous and more crank power and a long, narrow 6V, 3EH commonly used in pairs in some John Deere tractors.  Try an ag center to find these if box stores can't or won't get them for you.  Check your box dimensions first.

 

The driveshaft is supposed to turn when you turn the rear wheels.  One wheel on the ground and trans in gear it will not when turning the wheel that is off the ground.  Both wheels off the ground and trans in gear one wheel will go forward, the other backwards.

 

Early 70's Dodge pickups used a cable operated heater valve that you may be able to find or if you can live with manually closing it under the hood, common plumbing shutoff valves can be plumbed in.

 

[bkahler]

1 hour ago, ktb said:

My dad and I trailered our family's granite gray 1951 Dodge B-3-B-108 Pilot House with fluid drive and lowside bed from CA to TX last week, and I'm getting started on getting it running again after sitting ~25 years.  There are some key challenges that we could use some of the forum's sage advice on.

 

1. The keys have been lost.  I removed the ignition lock cylinder and am working on the passenger door lock cylinder (need a smaller flathead to remove the setscrew).  The gas cap is also lockable, but this is a non-original part, and we will probably just pick the lock and replace it.  If our local key shop is unable to do anything with the original lock cylinders, does anyone know of an online source for old mopar keys or cylinders?  Is there a recommended gas cap replacement?

 

My local lock smith was able to re-key both the door and ignition locks with no problem. 

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

2. Spark plug wires.  The O'Reilly webpage showed Standard Motor Products part # 3600 as direct replacement, but the Rock Auto info page on them shows wire lengths of 9"-11"-15", and measuring the old wires from the Dodge, I'm seeing 18"-21"-24" wires.  Is there a good set of longer cut-to-length/DIY plug wires available out there, or a source for custom-fit wires for our 218 engines?

 

II bought spark plug wires from one of the vendors like DCM Classics, etc.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

3. 6V Battery.  For now I plan to leave the original 6V / positive ground / generator electrical system in place.  Are there any recommended 6V battery options out there (besides the $250 Optima Redtop 6V)?   

 

4. Original wheels are 15" with ancient 6.70-15 tube tires.  I plan to get 205/75R15 tires installed - is there any other inexpensive radial size (preferably taller but still narrow enough to fit on the original wheels) recommended? 

 

If your truck is a 51 B3B then the original wheels would have been 16".  I run P225/75SR16 radials on my 51 B3B.  Are you sure they are 15" wheels?

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

5. Radiator / cooling system.  Original radiator is cracked and overflow tube has a worn-through spot due to rubbing on the center hood section structure.  I believe the radiator cracked due to an incorrect positive-pressure cap being used.  I will have a local shop braze/clean/retest the original radiator and will source a new zero-pressure radiator cap.  Also the heater control valve (?), right rear corner of engine head, is badly corroded and will need replacement - any idea if these can be found or substituted?

 

Your radiator will likely need to be re-cored.  My re-core cost me about $750 at the local shop added to the $150 to buy an original style radiator.  Not the cheapest but I'm glad I did it.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

6. Hand-starting crank nut hex size?  I'd like to try turning the engine over by hand but do not have a hand-starting crank.  Does anyone know the hex size of the outer part of the hand-starting crank nut so that I can try to rotate the engine by hand with a wrench or socket?

 

I don't know the size off the top of my head, but if the clutch disc is frozen to the flywheel I doubt you'll be able to turn it over by hand.  You'll likely need to resolve #8 before you can proceed.

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

7. Brakes don't work.  Stiff brake pedal and stuck hand brake handle/cable (these I'll be addressing later, but just wanted to throw it out there for future discussion).  For the hand brake it looks like it's just the cable that is stuck - the local hand brake lever works, although the front of the driveshaft and hand brake lining are very oily from an apparent transmission leak.

 

For reasons to lengthy to explain here I ended up installing front disc brakes and a Jeep differential that had disc brakes as well.  Lots of people like keeping the brakes original and that was my intent but in the end I went with the disc brakes and I'm glad that I did. 

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

8. Driveshaft stuck engaged.  Another long-term project.  Turning the rear wheels also spins the driveshaft.  The clutch pedal goes up and down with appropriate resistance, and the 3-speed column shifter shifts freely, but it would appear that the transmission is stuck in gear even with the clutch pedal depressed and shifter in neutral. 

 

It's possible the clutch disc is frozen to the flywheel.  I've seen that more than once in older vehicles that sit for long periods of time.  When I was younger and ran into this problem on my TR6 I used the starter to try and break it free.  This isn't necessarily the best approach but it did work for me.  Just try turning the engine over with the starter and see what happens. 

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

I think that's enough for now. There are many challenges ahead, but I'm super-stoked to be starting on this project and look forward to sharing progress with the forum!  Thanks in advance!!

 

Nice looking truck!

 

1 hour ago, ktb said:

- Kyle

 

[JBNeal]

 

Crawl under that beast and remove the flywheel cover, put a prybar on the ring gear and see what colorful german phrases you can utter...this might obviate the need to proceed on any immediate parts purchases.

[B1B Keven]

Nice project truck! Welcome to the forum.

 

Hand crank nut is 1 3/4".

 

https://www.handhwiring.com/cloth-wiring

 

https://www.ledlight.com/ledlight-6-volt-positive-chassis-catalog.aspx

 

I know a guy that works on gauge clusters and speedometers.

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

Welcome to the 'family'. 

1. Hopefully your locksmith can help you with your locks. If not an aftermarket ignition switch will get you going until a proper one can be tracked down

2. My first set of plug wires came from my local Farm & Fleet store. It was a generic cut-to-length set for tractors. They worked fine until I upgraded to a Pertronix ignition and I upgraded to their plug wires too. 

3. Check with your local battery house, or farm store. They may have 6v batteries in stock. As mentioned earlier, measure the battery box and get the largest one that'll fit. Also, I recommend checking the condition of your battery cables and connections. Be sure to use 1 ga cables at minimum. Many of us fine 0 ga. or 00 ga. to be preferred. The 'off the shelf' cables at the big box stores tend to be 4 ga. for 12v vehicles. 

4. As mentioned, most 1/2 ton trucks came with 16" wheels. But I've seen many with 15's, especially in California for some reason. Maybe the factory out there (San Leandro?) use 15's as standard vs. the 16's out of Detroit. Either way it'll depend on the width of your rims. My B2C has the original 15" X 5.5" wheels. I am running 235/75R-15's without any problems. 

5. Good luck with your radiator. If you can't find a Zero pressure cap you can just cut the seal do that it won't seal, hence making it a zero pressure cap. 

6. I couldn't remember the size of the crank nut, but I thing someone answered that for you. 

7. Regarding the Park Brake cable. If you can get it removed, try soaking it with penetrating oil and gently pulling it one way or the other. It'll likely free up over time. That's what I had to do with mine. Once I got it freed up, and well lubed, it have been working trouble free ever since. 

8. The truck should roll with the trans in neutral, even if the clutch is stuck as someone mentioned. Maybe the Park Brake is locked on? I suppose it's possible that the trans got stuck in multiple gears. I've seen it happen before. You'll just need to play around with it, or worse case... tear it apart. 

 

Looking forward to seeing your progress.  

[bkahler]

2 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

8. The truck should roll with the trans in neutral, even if the clutch is stuck as someone mentioned. Maybe the Park Brake is locked on? I suppose it's possible that the trans got stuck in multiple gears. I've seen it happen before. You'll just need to play around with it, or worse case... tear it apart. 

 

Merle, good point about the truck rolling if the transmission is in neutral.  I missed that tidbit

 

[ktb]

Thank you all so much for your responses!  I love this forum!!  I will give a quick update on today's activities and clarify a few things.

 

8. Please excuse my embarassing rookie mistake here. I don't know what I was thinking, but yes, I now understand that the driveshaft and rear wheels will spin together via the differential, and there may be no trouble at all with the transmission - I will post more as I figure out more.  The pickup rolls pretty well, and the hand brake is not engaged (it is stuck in the disengaged position).  The right rear wheel is the most difficult to turn, probably due to leaked brake fluid and corrosion. 

 

One important thing I should have emphasized - this is a fluid drive B-3-B, so no flywheel.  I do not know much about this system or how it's put together, but I imagine some seals and/or gaskets need to be replaced to stop the leak, and the fluid needs to be drained and refilled.  Another question I haven't looked into: is the fluid drive fluid in addition to different manual transmission fluid that goes into a separate fill hole, or does the fluid drive fluid account for all of the necessary transmission fluid?  I did read on a different forum that the recommended fluid drive fluid is 10W motor oil or TDH tractor fluid (ISO22 or ISO32 grade).  Photos of what my transmission/hand brake lining area looks like below.

 

OK, now to get back to the original questions in order:

 

1. I took the ignition lock cylinder to our local key shop, and they found a blank that fit and should be able to get my keys made tomorrow.  Am I correct in assuming the passenger door lock cylinder is a completely different cut of key?  I'm still having a hard time getting the door cylinder removed - the set screw is very tight, even after repeated shots of PB Blaster, and I haven't found a strong enough 3mm flathead screwdriver that will start it turning.  Unless it also has left-handed threads like half of the lug bolts 🤣. 

 

2. I think Rock Auto's info page for Standard Motor Products #3600 spark plug wires was incorrect, because the #3602 spark plug wires (which should be identical except metallic core vice suppression core) lead lengths are listed as 33"-40"-46", which is plenty long for our application.  I tried ordering a set of #3602 from O'Reilly, but they could not get them anymore.  I will either order from Rock Auto or order #3600 from O'Reilly.

 

3. Today I picked up a 640CCA 6V tractor battery from Tractor Supply for about $140.  I could fit a longer battery in the box (7.5" wide, 13.5" long, 9.5" tall), but this one was the same size as the old battery I removed and will probably be good enough.  Thank you very much for the suggestions!  Battery photos below.

 

4. As far as I know, the 15" wheels are original, in rusty light yellow (Dodge Truck Cream).  I did read in Don Bunn's book Dodge B-Series Trucks, pg 117, "Super-cushion 6.70/15 tires were now available for the 1/2-ton models" beginning in 1951.  It's certainly possible they are not the original wheels, but the original hubcaps fit, and I cannot see any of my ancestors springing for a new set of wheels for this western Nebraska farm truck 😊.  FWIW, the serial number (822XXXXX) indicates this was a Detroit-produced vehicle, not San Leandro.  As for tires, today I went with 225/75R15 - they seemed like a good combo of height and narrowness that will work on the 15" x 5.5" wide wheels.  I think the tires look good better...  New tires glamour shots below.

 

5. Removing the old radiator is still on my to-do list.  The crack is at the very top right corner of the rad; I'm praying it will not need to be re-cored, but we'll see what the rad shop finds.  I did find a Stant #10203 zero pressure radiator cap on eBay.  The heater control valve I'll have to do more research on.

 

6. Thank you B1B Keven for the hand crank nut size of 1-3/4".  I will try to find a socket!

 

7. Thank you Merle Coggins for the advice on freeing the stuck hand brake cable (among many other pearls of wisdom)!  I'm sure the brakes will be a long project - do most of you stick with metal brake lines in the rear or use flexible brake hoses?

 

If you're still reading this, thank you all again!  Looking forward to providing more updates!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 8 by ktb

[Bobacuda]

Where are you at in Texas? I have a ‘53 B-4-B, fluid drive. It will roll in gear because it is FD. The trans is most likely your leak, not the FD unit. I would just check the fluid level in the fluid coupler.  I have a few “clean” photos from underneath, if you need some. 

[ktb]

3 hours ago, Bobacuda said:

Where are you at in Texas? I have a ‘53 B-4-B, fluid drive. It will roll in gear because it is FD. The trans is most likely your leak, not the FD unit. I would just check the fluid level in the fluid coupler.  I have a few “clean” photos from underneath, if you need some. 

Wow, beautiful!!! 🤩

 

So the larger front part of the transmission train is the clutch & fluid drive section, and the smaller rear section is the gearbox, correct?  In that case, I think you're absolutely right - I have a transmission leak, not a fluid drive leak.  So after identifying and fixing the leak(s), I assume I'm looking at draining/refilling the smaller section with 75W90 gear oil?  Thanks so much!

 

Oh, and I'm in San Angelo, TX - how about you? 

Edited November 8 by ktb

[JBNeal]

1 hour ago, ktb said:

...this is a fluid drive B-3-B, so no flywheel...

There's a flywheel in there with a ring gear for starter engagement, the fluid drive coupler is bolted to the flywheel, and the clutch + pressure plate are bolted to the coupler.

 

additional information - miscellaneous repair details

[Bobacuda]

I live a few miles outside of Comfort off I-10 (San Antonio, Boerne, Comfort…).

 

After you remove the clutch cover, e-brake stuff, and speedometer cable you remove shifter arms and then unbolt the front u-joint connector at the back of the trans. You are then ready to unbolt the trans and pull it. It is HEAVY. When I was a pup I could jack up the front and pull it by myself - those days are gone. 
 

In the photo, starting at the back of the engine, the first is the fluid coupler. It is bolted to the crankshaft. Next is a small “flywheel” that the clutch bolts to. If you are pulling the trans, get a new, sealed throwout bearing. Don’t get one with a grease fitting (they fail because they are a pain to grease).

[Bobacuda]

The truck FD has the ring gear on the fluid coupler. The small “flywheel” is after that.  It is incorporated with the fluid coupler. You can see ears of the clutch bolted to the flywheel. If you need a better visual, let me know. I think I have a damaged unit (someone tried to weld on it) that I can photo to show the flywheel.

[ktb]

26 minutes ago, JBNeal said:

There's a flywheel in there with a ring gear for starter engagement, the fluid drive coupler is bolted to the flywheel, and the clutch + pressure plate are bolted to the coupler.

 

additional information - miscellaneous repair details

 

23 minutes ago, Bobacuda said:

I live a few miles outside of Comfort off I-10 (San Antonio, Boerne, Comfort…).

 

After you remove the clutch cover, e-brake stuff, and speedometer cable you remove shifter arms and then unbolt the front u-joint connector at the back of the trans. You are then ready to unbolt the trans and pull it. It is HEAVY. When I was a pup I could jack up the front and pull it by myself - those days are gone. 
 

In the photo, starting at the back of the engine, the first is the fluid coupler. It is bolted to the crankshaft. Next is a small “flywheel” that the clutch bolts to. If you are pulling the trans, get a new, sealed throwout bearing. Don’t get one with a grease fitting (they fail because they are a pain to grease).

 

Ahhh...  Thank you both!  Grasshopper has much to learn...  I was hoping not to learn how to pull a tranny, but sounds like I may have to!

[ggdad1951]

8 hours ago, ktb said:

OK, now to get back to the original questions in order:

 

1. I took the ignition lock cylinder to our local key shop, and they found a blank that fit and should be able to get my keys made tomorrow.  Am I correct in assuming the passenger door lock cylinder is a completely different cut of key?  I'm still having a hard time getting the door cylinder removed - the set screw is very tight, even after repeated shots of PB Blaster, and I haven't found a strong enough 3mm flathead screwdriver that will start it turning.  Unless it also has left-handed threads like half of the lug bolts 🤣. 

 

 

7. Thank you Merle Coggins for the advice on freeing the stuck hand brake cable (among many other pearls of wisdom)!  I'm sure the brakes will be a long project - do most of you stick with metal brake lines in the rear or use flexible brake hoses?

 

1.  Well, IF and I mean IF you get that set screw out, you'll be one of a VERY few who do.  Right hand screw, but generally so frozen in and small of a drive it doesn't happen.  Most find a different way, drilling out, breaking off etc. to get the keeper screw out.  See below for my way of dealing with it.  The door and ingnition should be the same key.

 

7.  Merle is right, I have loosened several this way.  I hung a cinder block to help put tension on while hanging vertical.

 

 

[Merle Coggins]

8 hours ago, JBNeal said:

There's a flywheel in there with a ring gear for starter engagement, the fluid drive coupler is bolted to the flywheel, and the clutch + pressure plate are bolted to the coupler.

 

additional information - miscellaneous repair details

 

That’s not correct. There is no conventional flywheel on a FD vehicle. The FD unit has 8 studs that attach directly to the crank flange. The ring gear for the starter is on the FD housing. The output of the FD is the driven plate, which acts as a flywheel surface for the clutch to mount to. 

 

Yes, the transmission gear box is a completely separate unit with it’s own oil. I would recommend just checking the level in the FD unit and adding if needed. If you do change it I would recommend ISO AW32 tractor hydraulic oil. You should be able to find that at your Tractor Supply store. It is very slow to drain, and to fill, if you decide to change the oil. The same plug is used for both. Crank the engine until the plug is at the bottom to drain. Then crank it again until the plug can be accessed through the bell housing inspection/fill hole at around the 2:00 position. This is the position for both checking and filling.  

[JBNeal]

1 hour ago, Merle Coggins said:

That’s not correct. There is no conventional flywheel on a FD vehicle. The FD unit has 8 studs that attach directly to the crank flange. The ring gear for the starter is on the FD housing. The output of the FD is the driven plate, which acts as a flywheel surface for the clutch to mount to.

Come on, why ya gotta be splitting hairs? 😁

OP said there was no flywheel with FD, I said that there was (with brief details), then you agreed by adding further details...sounds like we're on the same side on this one again...bottom line, tinkering with that FD coupling should be done with care as they can be easy to mess up with improper maintenance and scarce repair parts.  OP has a long row to hoe before getting this beast rolling under its own power safely, and helping out with theee details is beneficial in reducing repair costs AND improving enjoyment factor 🏆

[ktb]

5 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

 

1.  Well, IF and I mean IF you get that set screw out, you'll be one of a VERY few who do.  Right hand screw, but generally so frozen in and small of a drive it doesn't happen.  Most find a different way, drilling out, breaking off etc. to get the keeper screw out.  See below for my way of dealing with it.  The door and ingnition should be the same key.

 

Well, this is a most fortuitous revelation!!!  I will happily stop emptying cans of PB Blaster and searching for tiny flathead screwdrivers with big handles and simply wait for my ignition key to be made and try it in the door!!!  Thank you, Sir!!!  🥳🎉🍺

Edited November 8 by ktb

[ktb]

3 hours ago, Merle Coggins said:

 

That’s not correct. There is no conventional flywheel on a FD vehicle. The FD unit has 8 studs that attach directly to the crank flange. The ring gear for the starter is on the FD housing. The output of the FD is the driven plate, which acts as a flywheel surface for the clutch to mount to. 

 

Yes, the transmission gear box is a completely separate unit with it’s own oil. I would recommend just checking the level in the FD unit and adding if needed. If you do change it I would recommend ISO AW32 tractor hydraulic oil. You should be able to find that at your Tractor Supply store. It is very slow to drain, and to fill, if you decide to change the oil. The same plug is used for both. Crank the engine until the plug is at the bottom to drain. Then crank it again until the plug can be accessed through the bell housing inspection/fill hole at around the 2:00 position. This is the position for both checking and filling.  

 

2 hours ago, JBNeal said:

Come on, why ya gotta be splitting hairs? 😁

OP said there was no flywheel with FD, I said that there was (with brief details), then you agreed by adding further details...sounds like we're on the same side on this one again...bottom line, tinkering with that FD coupling should be done with care as they can be easy to mess up with improper maintenance and scarce repair parts.  OP has a long row to hoe before getting this beast rolling under its own power safely, and helping out with theee details is beneficial in reducing repair costs AND improving enjoyment factor 🏆

 

Now now boys, let's not fight.  🤣  I'm the ding-dong who doesn't know how a transmission is put together, much less a Fluid Drive one.  There's a ring gear that turns the starter, whatever you want to call it.  You're both right!  Trophies all around!!!!!! 🏆🏆

[Bobacuda]

Dug through my “Why am I saving this pile?” and found the fluid drive coupler a previous person ruined.
 

The “front” bolts to the crankshaft. You can see there is no traditional flywheel, so the ring gear is attached to FD coupler. The small “flywheel” the clutch bolts to is on the “rear” of the unit. You can see that better in the photo I found online. Posting the photos may take several posts. 

[Merle Coggins]

@Bobacuda It's interesting that your FD only has 4 studs. Upon a closer look it appears that someone cut off the other 4. Someone must have installed it on a 4 hole crank at one time. The crank flange for FD should have 8 holes. I believe the 8 hole flanges are also thicker. Although, with another look I see that yours has 4 holes whereas mine only has 2... interesting... 

 

 

And as Bobacuda showed, the driven plate, AKA Clutch "flywheel" surface. 

[Bobacuda]

Like I said, another person really messed that FD unit up. He also tried welding the “flywheel” to the fluid coupler. I guess he changed the engine, found out the crank had 4 bolts, and then he tried to “lock” the coupler by welding. 

 

And for 10 yrs the pack-rat in me stashes it under a work bench… for years… sigh…

[ktb]

Thank you all very much - the Fluid Drive layout is much clearer to me now.  So somewhere on the outer edge of the FD coupler is the fill/drain plug that I can orient to the 2:00 position to check & fill through the bellhousing window.  And the suggestion to check if the clutch is frozen to the flywheel only applies to dry clutches, correct? 

Edited November 12 by ktb

[JBNeal]

B-3 FD has the viscous coupling and a dry clutch and pressure plate.