1946 Chrysler starter questions, more help needed please!!

[harmony]

I'm in the process of getting my parts car engine/ fluid drive running.  I've built a run engine stand for it and the process is almost completed and soon I'll push the start button.  But first, I thought I might as well pull the starter and have a look at it.  Indeed the commutator needed work ( cleaning out the grooves).  But I noticed that the plunger that inserts into the solenoid, looks like a back yard butcher job where it is connected to the yoke assembly.  The small machine screws have a lot of play in them.  Since they are nylock nuts, it seems that they were left this loose intentionally.  Also the bracket on the yoke has a slot.  But I'm assuming it is suppose to be slotted, right?

My question is, should I snug up those machine screws just enough for everything to slightly move, or are they suppose to be this loose.  

Another question is, should I put a thin layer of grease on that plunger?

 

[D35 Torpedo]

I'm not sure, but that linkage doesnt look original. Both my 50 and 52 dont have a solenoid at all. It looks like the linkage has oblonged the hole pretty bad also. Not sure about grease, but fluid film works great and is a dielectric. Where about in b.c. are you? I'm in the fraser valley. Nice car!

[harmony]

9 hours ago, D35 Torpedo said:

I'm not sure, but that linkage doesnt look original. Both my 50 and 52 dont have a solenoid at all. It looks like the linkage has oblonged the hole pretty bad also. Not sure about grease, but fluid film works great and is a dielectric. Where about in b.c. are you? I'm in the fraser valley. Nice car!

The parts catalog and the service manual both have illustrations showing everything as it is except the plunger isn't shown.  Unfortunately there isn't a closeup illustration of that slot on the yoke either.  I think it must be stock because that bolt is pretty small, a #10 I think.  So I doubt it would wear a slot in that thick yoke bracket.  Plus the slot or oblong hole is pretty uniform.  But I can't think of why it would be needed.  Maybe since the arm on the yoke is so short, it needs a bit of play for the plunger to go in and out.  If it was just a hole, perhaps it would bind.  Maybe today, I'll get my head under the hood or crawl under my '48 and see if I can compare the assembly to this one on the '46 in detail.  I guess I'll put it back together as it is and give it a bench test.

 

I'm on Vancouver Island on the Saanich Peninsula.  Thanks, yeah the old girl (Harmony) is quite the looker.  With the cost of the ferry these days I'm pretty much rock bound. However there is a place in Surrey that relines brake shoes.  I'd like to get my spare set of brake shoes for my 1930 Hudson relined, and I might as well get my spare set for my '48 Chrysler relined while I'm at it.   I could just ship the shoes over to them, but I'd like to see their operation first.   The Coastal Swap Meet in Abbottsford is getting closer and closer.  I can't wait.

[MarcDeSoto]

Does that starter actually work?  It looks like it needs some work with all that rust on it.  The plunger needs to a rubber boot on it to shield it from dirt and I would put some lithium grease on it.  I'd put a picture of my starter here, but it's still in the shop.  They had to send the solenoid switch back east to a specialist because the points were sticking causing the dreaded starter run on after the engine starts.  

[harmony]

22 minutes ago, MarcDeSoto said:

Does that starter actually work?  It looks like it needs some work with all that rust on it.  The plunger needs to a rubber boot on it to shield it from dirt and I would put some lithium grease on it.  I'd put a picture of my starter here, but it's still in the shop.  They had to send the solenoid switch back east to a specialist because the points were sticking causing the dreaded starter run on after the engine starts.  

I haven't got that far Marc.  I just thought I would clean it up a bit and go over it and then give it a bench test.  The parts catalog doesn't show a boot for it.  I didn't get to my shop today, but tomorrow I'll check out what I have on the '48 so I can compare.   Having read about your "run on" issue, maybe I'll pull the solenoid apart to see what it looks like inside while I'm at it.

[Los_Control]

IMHO, there has been some previous work done to the starter .... no surprise.

 

 

There should not be a Allen head bolt, The other end looks like it is wobbled out & oblong.

I dunno but I believe it should be a round hole with a shoulder bolt tightened up allowing rotation movement.

 

 

What I see looks like a whole lot of wear & some repairs done to keep it working. .... The bolt should rotate, but not move in the oblong hole.

You could install a sleeve in the hole & weld it up ..... you could weld up the hole and drill it out .... It looks like it has the correct shoulder bolt installed ... it should not be oblong & loose fitting.

I am often wrong, looking at the oval hole, that is not how it left from the factory .... IMHO, I cant see any reason to have that bracket slotted.

The bolts are wrong, the linkage looks home made.

The bolt looks like it may be rusted solid, instead of rotating like it should it wore a slot in the bracket??? Then someone did a repair 40 years ago?

 

Just my opinion, Everything looks wrong there, the bolts the linkage the bracket. ..... I bet it will still work though.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The side bars are on backwards for one thing.

The bolts and nuts are not factory.

The elongated slotted hole is OE factory.

Finding a new original rubber boot....naw..

Edited March 4, 2023 by Dodgeb4ya

[harmony]

59 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

The side bars are on backwards for one thing.

The bolts and nuts are not factory.

The elongated slotted hole is OE factory.

Finding a new original rubber boot....naw..

I also thought that those side bars as you're calling them were on backwards.  I also agree about the bolts.  The fact that someone used nylocks make me think that they intentionally wanted the side bars to be that loose for some unknown reason,,,,so far.  As for the boot, I'll bet if I tried hard enough I would find a tie rod end boot that would fit, with a little persuasion and alterations.  But since it's not going into a car, at least not right now, I'll pass on that exercise.

Edited March 4, 2023 by harmony

[harmony]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

IMHO, there has been some previous work done to the starter .... no surprise.

 

 

There should not be a Allen head bolt, The other end looks like it is wobbled out & oblong.

I dunno but I believe it should be a round hole with a shoulder bolt tightened up allowing rotation movement.

 

 

What I see looks like a whole lot of wear & some repairs done to keep it working. .... The bolt should rotate, but not move in the oblong hole.

You could install a sleeve in the hole & weld it up ..... you could weld up the hole and drill it out .... It looks like it has the correct shoulder bolt installed ... it should not be oblong & loose fitting.

I am often wrong, looking at the oval hole, that is not how it left from the factory .... IMHO, I cant see any reason to have that bracket slotted.

The bolts are wrong, the linkage looks home made.

The bolt looks like it may be rusted solid, instead of rotating like it should it wore a slot in the bracket??? Then someone did a repair 40 years ago?

 

Just my opinion, Everything looks wrong there, the bolts the linkage the bracket. ..... I bet it will still work though.

I agree, for the purpose of "trying" to fire up the engine while in the run engine stand, it might work as it is.  I seem to get overly curious why people make changes.  As for the bolts, Yes they were not using Allan and nylock back in the day.  While researching this, I discovered thanks to "Master Tech" that there is actually a clevis pin in one of the holes.  It's also mentioned in his video that by removing that clevis pin a person can adjust the travel of the plunger by adjusting a screw.  But I don't remember seeing an adjusting screw anywhere on it???  I'll have another look tomorrow. 

[Los_Control]

Just now, Dodgeb4ya said:

The elongated slotted hole is OE factory.

I trust your word on that ... I say it looks wrong ... my truck does not have a elongated hole. That means nothing when looking at a 1946 car.

 

I dunno, for a 1946 electronic push button starter maybe ... for a 1950 floor starter .... a elongated hole just gives more slop in the linkage.

 

All ya all with your fancy cars, maybe it is required.

[vintage6t]

For reference, this is an undisturbed starter from a 50 Desoto.  You can clearly see the pivot arm is slotted as well as the original style bolts.

[harmony]

13 minutes ago, vintage6t said:

For reference, this is an undisturbed starter from a 50 Desoto.  You can clearly see the pivot arm is slotted as well as the original style bolts.

Great, thanks for that picture.  That explains everything.  Well,,,, except for the adjusting screw that "Master Tech" was talking about, but I'll have a look for that tomorrow when I have it in front of me again.  As mentioned by dodgeb4ya, it's clear how my side bars are on backwards, and a tad loose I might say. Good call on that one dodgeb4ya

Edited March 5, 2023 by harmony

[harmony]

10 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I trust your word on that ... I say it looks wrong ... my truck does not have a elongated hole. That means nothing when looking at a 1946 car.

 

I dunno, for a 1946 electronic push button starter maybe ... for a 1950 floor starter .... a elongated hole just gives more slop in the linkage.

 

All ya all with your fancy cars, maybe it is required.

Yep, these new fan-dang-go cars, I just can't keep up with all the new bells and whistles on them these days!!

[Los_Control]

???

[dpollo]

I am at Shawnigan Lake.   I recently supplied Mark Lewis 3 of these starters so he could have enough parts to overcome his own difficulties.

 

Contact him at Discount Towing   ( Langford)   250 727 1142   mention me, and ask what he may have left over.   

[harmony]

6 minutes ago, dpollo said:

I am at Shawnigan Lake.   I recently supplied Mark Lewis 3 of these starters so he could have enough parts to overcome his own difficulties.

 

Contact him at Discount Towing   ( Langford)   250 727 1142   mention me, and ask what he may have left over.   

Awesome, thanks for that dpollo.  Will he know who you are if I say "dpollo" ?

[D35 Torpedo]

There is probably a screw inside the piston. I say this because the piston is keyed. Just makes sense.

5 hours ago, harmony said:

I agree, for the purpose of "trying" to fire up the engine while in the run engine stand, it might work as it is.  I seem to get overly curious why people make changes.  As for the bolts, Yes they were not using Allan and nylock back in the day.  While researching this, I discovered thanks to "Master Tech" that there is actually a clevis pin in one of the holes.  It's also mentioned in his video that by removing that clevis pin a person can adjust the travel of the plunger by adjusting a screw.  But I don't remember seeing an adjusting screw anywhere on it???  I'll have another look tomorrow. 

 

[dpollo]

maybe,  my name is Pollock.    I don't think he will hang up on you.   

 

[vintage6t]

Thinking about why the pivot arm is slotted. Just speculation, possibly because the bendix needs a bit of additional travel when enaging/disengaging the flywheel. If so without the slot the plunger already being pulled into the energized soleiod would not allow that.

[MarcDeSoto]

Of those three starters you pictured, you should have the Positive Drive (Solenoid), not the Bendix.  Starters are very important parts.  I would suggest getting a good one that is original and taking it to an Electric shop with experience with 6 volt starters.  That's what I did, but I'm still waiting for it to be finished as they had to send my solenoid switch to specialist, since they didn't have the right parts for the switch.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by MarcDeSoto

[harmony]

To answer MarcDeSoto's question, yes the starter works.  It took several hours of almost rebuilding it.  It was shorting out in multiple places and smoking like a hot rod doing a burnout.  It also was turning over at a speed like it was -40F. But I'm thinking that might have been because I just grabbed a pair of 12V battery leads I had kicking around.

So after beefing up the size of the cables, and cleaning the commutator, and resoldering a few sketchy wires, I've got it turning over to beat the band now.

 

However,,,,,, As I've mentioned numerous times I'm dumb as a stick with electricity.  So I can't figure out what I'm overlooking here.  I've checked continuity in several places.  So I have continuity between the two small posts, so that should tell me that my coil winding is good on the solenoid.  The points were about 33th.  Manual calls for 25-30  so I set them at 25 hoping that was the issue,,,  nope. 

 

If I jump between the battery terminal on the solenoid to the small terminal, normally it would activate the solenoid and spin the motor.  Nothing happens when I do that.  I've used one of those remote start gadgets. ( It's in good working order and with the button depressed once the clips are attached from the large post to the small post, I have continuity there) I've even tried using a screwdriver to jump too.  Not even a glimmer of a spark. 

 

But when I manually close the points with a screwdriver.  The starter is off to the races.  It spins really fast and quiet. 

 

I'm trying to comprehend the manual and I'm wonder if it has something to do with " Adjusting pinion clearance"  I'm hoping not, because no matter how many times I read that, I don't get a picture in my head as to what it says. 

 

Also on the back( outside) of the solenoid is a screw, and somewhere I read that it is an adjusting screw, and yes as I turn it, I can see a plate on the inside of the solenoid move slightly.  But I can't remember where I read that.  Or what it's suppose to be adjusting.  It doesn't even show that screw in the illustration in the manual ( or mention it on that illustration)  nor does it show up in the parts catalog. I thought I had taken a picture of the screw, but I didn't.  One of the pictures shows the plate that moves. ( red arrow with P )  and about where the screw is on the other side of the solenoid back plate ( red arrow with S )

 

Actually I just found that picture of the adjusting screw I'm talking about. (the last picture)

Holy shomoly,,  my memory is sooooo  bad.  I mentioned earlier in this very  post where I read about that adjusting screw.  So I'll go back and check out what "Master Tech" had to say about it.  

Now where the hell did I put my glasses......

 

Please talk down to me.  Like I've never even heard the word electricity in my life before.  I've been on this planet for more than 7 decades and no matter how many times people tell me ohms law is like water running through a hose, it's not sinking in, and I'm confident at this point it never will.

Edited March 9, 2023 by harmony

[vintage6t]

You have three things that happen to make the starter run. 

1. A relay that switches power the the soleniod.  That is the contacts that you were pushing with the screw driver plus the coil right beneath the contacts. Apply power across the two small terminals and the coil should energize and pull the contacts closed. If not you may have a bad relay coil. 

 

2. When the relay contacts close it energizes the solenoid coil (inside the round can). When energized that coil pulls the soleniod armature into the solenoid and through the mechanical linkage moves the starter gear forward.

 

3. When the armature is pulled into the solenoid it also closes the heavy duty contacts at the very bottom of relay. When those contacts close the starter motor is energized and starts running.

 

Looks like you proved steps 2 and 3 work by manually pushing the relay contacts closed with a screw driver. Now see if the relay works as described in step 1.

[harmony]

30 minutes ago, vintage6t said:

You have three things that happen to make the starter run. 

1. A relay that switches power the the soleniod.  That is the contacts that you were pushing with the screw driver plus the coil right beneath the contacts. Apply power across the two small terminals and the coil should energize and pull the contacts closed. If not you may have a bad relay coil. 

 

2. When the relay contacts close it energizes the solenoid coil (inside the round can). When energized that coil pulls the soleniod armature into the solenoid and through the mechanical linkage moves the starter gear forward.

 

3. When the armature is pulled into the solenoid it also closes the heavy duty contacts at the very bottom of relay. When those contacts close the starter motor is energized and starts running.

 

Looks like you proved steps 2 and 3 work by manually pushing the relay contacts closed with a screw driver. Now see if the relay works as described in step 1.

Thanks,  I'll try that tomorrow,  I'm assuming it won't matter which terminal goes to positive or negative?  So even though I have continuity at both wire ends of that coil, that sounds like it doesn't necessarily mean that the coil is good? If it proves to be bad, can I repair it, or does it have to be replaced?

Oh, btw, when I apply 6 volts to those two terminals, does it matter if I'm connected with the battery leads as they are now?  Or do I disconnect them before I apply power to the small terminals?

Edited March 9, 2023 by harmony

[vintage6t]

If you're testing the relay in isolation, all wires disconnected from the small relay terminals, it shouldn't matter how you connect power to those terminals.

 

I can't tell 100% from the pictures but if you want the starter to run keep it wired as shown in the picture with the remote starter button.  Ground the small relay terminal that has no connection in that picture. Ground meaning the opposite side of the battery than the red battery cable shown in the picture. Then when you press the button the starter should run. If sparks fly don't blame me, but it probably means I'm not seeing the picture correctly. 

[harmony]

6 hours ago, vintage6t said:

If you're testing the relay in isolation, all wires disconnected from the small relay terminals, it shouldn't matter how you connect power to those terminals.

 

I can't tell 100% from the pictures but if you want the starter to run keep it wired as shown in the picture with the remote starter button.  Ground the small relay terminal that has no connection in that picture. Ground meaning the opposite side of the battery than the red battery cable shown in the picture. Then when you press the button the starter should run. If sparks fly don't blame me, but it probably means I'm not seeing the picture correctly. 

I just tried what you suggested by grounding out the other small post directly to the battery. Then I pulled the trigger on the remote starter gizmo and the starter spins fine. So from what you said, it sounds like my coil is ok.  But what should that be telling me as to what the issue is?  According to my wiring diagram, when the starter is installed a wire goes from that small post to the A terminal on the generator.