Adjusting valves - Speedy Mopar Flathead 6

[LeRoy]

On 2/25/2023 at 5:15 PM, Semmerling said:

 

 

IF YOU ARE HERE TO LEARN HOW TO ADJUST YOUR VALVES BE SURE TO SEE KEITH'S EXCELLENT

YOUTUBE VIDEO FOUND LATER ON IN THIS THREAD!

 

 

I tried to track down as much as possible to see what has been offered up on the subject of adjusting the valves on the flathead 6.

Setting aside all the suggestions for solo numbers, hot or cold, stopped or running, gloves or salve, I came up with the following, 

I would appreciate any feedback on it prior to having it tatooed on my back. Thanks to all that provided the information originally. 

See attached, 

THIS IS A NEW IMPROVED IMAGE

Maybe consider changing the title of your doc to Mopar straight 6 engines?

[Semmerling]

On 2/27/2023 at 8:47 AM, LeRoy said:

Maybe consider changing the title of your doc to Mopar straight 6 engines?

 

You are absolutely right. ALL FIXED SEE THE !ST ENTRY IN THIS THREAD

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Semmerling

[vintage6t]

2 hours ago, Semmerling said:

 

You are absolutely right. ALL FIXED SEE THE !ST ENTRY IN THIS THREAD

 

A few suggestions, nitpicks really.

 

1. Even though I understand the red numbering on the block to mean firing order I think it my be a point of confusion because based on placement they look like cylinder numbers. A suggestion to clarify is have a top row of number 1-6 clearly labeled cylinder number then just under that a second row 1,5,3,6,2,5 clearly labeled firing order. 

 

2.  7:00 and 1:30 are used to denote rotor position for cylinders #1 and #6 at TDC. That assumes the distributor is installed accordingly in its "standard" position. It's possible to install the distributor in other positions and as long as the spark plug wires are clocked correctly the engine will run fine. I think this could be the case for some potential users, especially novices. So it may be more general to reference the rotor position to the cap towers for sparkplug wires going to #1 an #6. Alternatively maybe just a warning to first check that the distributor is installed as shown in the diagram.

[Semmerling]

28 minutes ago, vintage6t said:

 

A few suggestions, nitpicks really.

 

1. Even though I understand the red numbering on the block to mean firing order I think it my be a point of confusion because based on placement they look like cylinder numbers. A suggestion to clarify is have a top row of number 1-6 clearly labeled cylinder number then just under that a second row 1,5,3,6,2,5 clearly labeled firing order. 

 

2.  7:00 and 1:30 are used to denote rotor position for cylinders #1 and #6 at TDC. That assumes the distributor is installed accordingly in its "standard" position. It's possible to install the distributor in other positions and as long as the spark plug wires are clocked correctly the engine will run fine. I think this could be the case for some potential users, especially novices. So it may be more general to reference the rotor position to the cap towers for sparkplug wires going to #1 an #6. Alternatively maybe just a warning to first check that the distributor is installed as shown in the diagram.

 

 

1. Going to say no to this one. RED NUMBERS mean FIRING ORDER.  See #2

2. Whereas you are certainly correct that this diagram is for a correctly set distributor. You are also correct that the distributor can be set in incorrectly and (knowing the firing order) one can make up for the error.
 

HOWEVER - The diagram solves the dilemma by exhibiting and requiring the viewer to follow the wires FROM the distributor TO the plugs, thereby showing proper distributor setup AND EXHIBITING PROPER CYLINDER NUMBER ORDER. 

Good minds should see any alternative pathing and then think  "not what I have, what is up with that?" 
For a simplified guide to standard procedures we should establish the right way in a manner that reveals a deviation. 

 

No doubt you are right they can set it up wrong. That is a different Speed Guide subject matter.

Appreciate you taking the time.

Edited February 27, 2023 by Semmerling

[Sam Buchanan]

I hadn't paid much attention to the poop sheet until vintage6t's post and I agree not having the cylinders numbered is an oversight. Unless I missed it I didn't see any info on the guide about which cylinder is #1 unless we are supposed to assume the #1 cylinder on the left is the "front" of the engine. To make it more confusing, #1 is on the left in the Rotor diagram but on the right in the (unnumbered) illustration of the valves!  ?

 

It does seem like it could be confusing to a novice to tell if the directions are referring to the cylinder number or the red firing order. But both of these issues could be easily fixed with a bit of editing. Technical writing is not easy......  ?

Edited February 27, 2023 by Sam Buchanan

[Semmerling]

 

FIRST ILLUSTRATION 
We see the engine from the distributor side

We see the wires coming from the distributor to each cylinder
We see them all numbered in cylinder number order left to right 
The first illustration requires knowing the cylinder order in proper left to right series
Why? So that the common mistake of distributor wire to proper plug can be checked as well. 

SECOND ILLUSTRATION  - The Manifold side
We are concerned with TDC as it moves from cylinder to cylinder in FIRING ORDER

We begin with the cylinder Firing Order marked #! as that is TDC - it is extreme RIGHT

Then move to cylinder Firing Order marked as #2  as this will be next TDC- it is 2nd from LEFT
Then we move to cylinder Firing Order marked as #3 as this will be TDC - it is 3rd from RIGHT

Etc. Etc. Etc.

The Red Number are at the point of where the adjustments will be made.....the tappets. 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Semmerling

[Sam Buchanan]

You asked for comments……

 

I checked mine with the engine running…..didn’t give any thought to firing order…. ?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Sam Buchanan

[Semmerling]

I appreciate your comment, this guide is attempting to help those trying to do a standard valve adjustment.
I mentioned this in the very 1st paragraph. You had mentioned that you didn't pay much attention to the poop sheet.
That is completely understandable as you do your adjustments without concern for TDC.

 

"Unless I missed it I didn't see any info on the guide about which cylinder is #1 unless we are supposed to assume the #1 cylinder on the left is the "front" of the engine. To make it more confusing, #1 is on the left in the Rotor diagram but on the right in the (unnumbered) illustration of the valves!"

Distributor Side = #1 cylinder IS on the LEFT (it is properly and plainly numbered) and it IS in the front
On the Manifold side = #1 cylinder IS on the RIGHT.
Nothing confused about it......unless your engine has the distributor and the manifolds/tappets on the same side.

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Semmerling

[martybose]

I guess no one caught the fact that the illustrated procedure shows one of the valves (#2 intake to be exact) being adjusted in both positions?  That won't work well!

[LeRoy]

1 hour ago, Sam Buchanan said:

You asked for comments……

 

I checked mine with the engine running…..didn’t give any thought to firing order…. ?

I did mine running, afterwards I overlooked the feelers closely and no dents or defomation that I can see. 

[Semmerling]

Marty.....you missed the other one to be exact....check out #5

Ok lets take some time here....

Marty, nobody is catching that as it isn't a mistake.  this guide allows you to POSITION (the big ARROWS) the TDC on only two (2) cylinders and do ALL the valves. Sometimes you can do BOTH of a single cylinder's exhaust AND intake.......and sometimes its just an exhaust or just an intake. 
Now you don't have to do it this way.....but you can. Again, position it in TWO specific TDCs positions.....and do all the valves.

 

You can also just move from FIRING POSITION to FIRING POSITION and do each cylinder at TDC too.

- Yes.....there are single valves that come up as ADJUSTABLE in more than one position. 
This is not a "new" discovery, it is almost a 100 years old. 

For those that didn't read the first page....
 

Stages matter......
THIS IS THE EXACT TEXT FROM THE TECHNICAL PAGE RIGHT HERE AT P-D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exhaust valve clearance .010
Intake valve clearance .008

 

Stage A, #1 and #6 at TDC, #1 in firing position
Stage B, #1 and #6 at TDC, #6 in firing position

To move from Stage A to B, manually turn the engine 1 revolution.

Stage A – Adjust #1 Both valves, #2 Inlet valve, #3 Exhaust Valve, #4 Inlet valve, #5 Both valves.
Stage B – Adjust #2 Both valves, #3 Inlet valve, #4 Exhaust valve, #5 Inlet valve, #6 Both valves.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Leroy..... Start from the top.  This guide is helping those that want to understand TDC, factory shop manual valve adjustments how and why it is done. You don't need TDC because you are doing your adjustments quite differently than the factory shop manuals. TDC is not needed, neither is wiping the oil off your feeler gauge, etc. etc.  You have a technique that takes time to master. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Semmerling

[Sam Buchanan]

4 hours ago, Semmerling said:

I appreciate your comment, this guide is attempting to help those trying to do a standard valve adjustment.
I mentioned this in the very 1st paragraph. You had mentioned that you didn't pay much attention to the poop sheet.
That is completely understandable as you do your adjustments without concern for TDC.

 

"Unless I missed it I didn't see any info on the guide about which cylinder is #1 unless we are supposed to assume the #1 cylinder on the left is the "front" of the engine. To make it more confusing, #1 is on the left in the Rotor diagram but on the right in the (unnumbered) illustration of the valves!"

Distributor Side = #1 cylinder IS on the LEFT (it is properly and plainly numbered) and it IS in the front
On the Manifold side = #1 cylinder IS on the RIGHT.
Nothing confused about it......unless your engine has the distributor and the manifolds/tappets on the same side.

 

Fair enough, most folks aren’t as crippled by OCD as I.  ?

Edited February 28, 2023 by Sam Buchanan

[Semmerling]

 

No problem Sam, we have a solution for that!

 

Special thanks to Jim Paulson at Causeway Castings for making up these "Cylinder Number" cases for me. They are only $113 but do not have the means to support a manual fuel pump. 

 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Semmerling

[Sniper]

On 2/26/2023 at 8:06 AM, Sniper said:

Let's not forget that valve adjustment will also affect the power output and the cranking compression tests.  Too much clearance will drop both numbers.

 

Watching an episode of Engine Masters about the effects of valve lash.  Season 5, episode 59.

 

Started with .022" lash on intake and exhaust.  Tightened up the last 0.010" on the intake, to 0.012", very minor difference in power.  Loosened the intake 0.010", to 0.032" and it went up  a lot.  6 hp and 14 ft/lb torque at max, but the increase was noticeable throughout the rpm range especially down low.  That's about 1% more hp and 2.5% more torque.

 

Did the same with the exhaust side, not much change to be seen.

 

How applicable is this?  I dunno as they were running a 600+ hp BBC.  I have seen on other engines, stock ones, that looser lash takes some power away.  I guess the real take away from this, as the guys on EM said, is to test and see what works for your setup.  Of course with our ~100hp engines the change may not even be noticeable.

[Bob Riding]

On 2/28/2023 at 4:05 AM, Semmerling said:

 

No problem Sam, we have a solution for that!

 

Special thanks to Jim Paulson at Causeway Castings for making up these "Cylinder Number" cases for me. They are only $113 but do not have the means to support a manual fuel pump. 

 

 

 

Thanks for doing this- I just used it to set my initial startup - very clear instructions!

 

[keithb7]

Oops. I meant to put this in this thread:

 

[Semmerling]

Duplication

Edited March 5, 2023 by Semmerling

[Semmerling]

On 2/26/2023 at 7:15 PM, FarmerJon said:

I have the same plymouth book, as well as a couple other Chrysler printed car books, they all call for no less than .010 on the intake. I have only seen online and motors manuals call for .008 intake. 

I am not saying it won't work, or that Mopar didn't call for it, just that it would be nice to see it from the source.

 

 

John, I have a good amount of early Dodge material.

Here is one showing valves lash as low as....well take a look