12v Starter Solenoid in a 6v car.

[Kilgore47]

I keep a list of all the things I have done to the car but I don't keep track of the dollars.  

[OUTFXD]

so... Replaced the old Solenoid with the new one. Immediately lost all power to the starter.  I could get the starter to turn briefly by twitching the key from aux to ign while holding the start button, But nothing else.  The ignition switch being janky anyways I got a generic switch from the local parts hause (as a stop gap until I can afford an actual mopar replacement). Installed the new switch, Still nothing.  Back under the hood I learned that you CAN get the battery cables backwards on the solanoid.  Moved the solenoid, rewired it correctly.  and now the starter just clicks rapidly. I re-checked all the connections.  I have 6, 8, and 12, volt batteries. none of witch would turn the engine over.  Very much like the Chinese solenoid I tried a while back. 

 

So I am very much at a loss. Outside of the battery and wires to the ignition switch I have replaced the entire starting circuit. Thought I had the problem licked a couple times. and now I am dead in the water.  I mean... With the old solenoid I could at least jump the car with the 12v battery to get it started.

 

 

HAAAAALLLLP!

[kencombs]

Rapid click is almost always due to low voltage.  Either low battery or current loss at a bad connection or two (or three). 

grounds are always suspect.  Back to troubleshooting!

Some guesses/starting point...

Start solenoids, or look alikes come in several flavors, 4 post, 3 post, ground through the mount, or ground from one of the start terminal.  What type did you get?

 

Can you spin it by jumping from the battery directly to the solenoids' engagement terminal? 

 

By jumping across the two big ones? 

 

Check voltage at very connection, while the key is in the start position.

[9 foot box]

   I had a similar experience. I cleaned the wire connections at the ammeter gauge. That restored my gauges functioning and starter button working again. My experience was sporadic, like yours, since your starter worked for your draw down test. 

[OUTFXD]

15 hours ago, kencombs said:

Start solenoids, or look alikes come in several flavors, 4 post, 3 post, ground through the mount, or ground from one of the start terminal.  What type did you get?

 

Can you spin it by jumping from the battery directly to the solenoids' engagement terminal? 

 

By jumping across the two big ones? 

 

Check voltage at very connection, while the key is in the start position.

the new solonoid is (visually) the same as the old one. Solenoid is a three wire  (Lead from battery, lead to Starter, wire from starter button) witch apparently grounds through the mount.

 

I tried using it while it was grounded to the battery with a jump lead.  (Make sure it was getting a proper ground)

 

I tried jumping the IGN wire to the battery (To see if it was getting full power from the battery lead.)

 

I didnt try jumping across the big terminals.   So,  back to diagnostics I guess.  Thank you for the suggestions!  Gives me a couple places to look.

[OUTFXD]

14 hours ago, 9 foot box said:

   I had a similar experience. I cleaned the wire connections at the ammeter gauge. That restored my gauges functioning and starter button working again. My experience was sporadic, like yours, since your starter worked for your draw down test. 

 

I will try this, Thank you for the suggestion!

[OUTFXD]

20 hours ago, kencombs said:

 

grounds are always suspect.  Back to troubleshooting!

 

Can you spin it by jumping from the battery directly to the solenoids' engagement terminal?

 

Check voltage at very connection, while the key is in the start position.

 

Went through and cleaned all the connections ,put clean new nuts and washers in.  Put an additional ground from the Starter mount bolt to the same stud as the Ground from the battery(trying to removing any possibility for grounding issues).  Ran a remote start button to the bat terminal on the solenoid. and removed wires to the ignition to remove the possibility of interference from cab side wire issues. So the ONLY stuff hooked up was the starter circuit.  Hit the button and just got rapid clicking.

 

Wire from solenoid to starter is only showing 3v while starting. 

Edited February 11, 2022 by OUTFXD

[Bryan]

Maybe a silly question but did you ever get a new battery?   And is it enough amp capacity?   Imagine if you hooked a 9V smoke alarm battery up and tried to start the car. Nothing would happen.   I've jumped off many a car, and if the jumped car has a very dead battery, even running the helping car at high idle would just cause a lot of clicking. You'd have let the helping car Idle high for about 15 minutes sometimes before the other would crank.   Not enough amps available.

[Bryan]

Another thing I found about ordering my solenoid.  Even though Rock Auto said it was the correct one, it wasn't. It was a 12V.   Mistake was repeated on other sites.  

[OUTFXD]

I have not replaced the battery,  how ever I have access to a known good 8v and 12v batteries.

 

I looked specifically for the part number of a 6v Solenoid. then went looking for a shop that had it.

 

However,  as I hooked it up.  I discovered that Solenoids are polarity sensitive.  You hook up the cables backwards and nothing happens.  Which raises a different question... What happens if you put a 6v Neg ground Solenoid in a 6V POS ground car(I didnt think to check on that when I was looking for the solenoid)?

[Sniper]

Theoretically, and I say that because reality always trumps theory, a solenoid should be insensitive to polarity on the coil side and it shouldn't matter how the switched side is connected.  The only caveat to that would be if it had a diode across the coil side, which you won't be able to tell unless you open up the solenoid.

 

I have my old factory 6v solenoid from when I converted to 12v I could send you for testing purposes.  If it works, keep it.

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, Sniper said:

Theoretically, and I say that because reality always trumps theory, a solenoid should be insensitive to polarity on the coil side and it shouldn't matter how the switched side is connected.  The only caveat to that would be if it had a diode across the coil side, which you won't be able to tell unless you open up the solenoid.

 

I have my old factory 6v solenoid from when I converted to 12v I could send you for testing purposes.  If it works, keep it.

Like Sniper, I can think of no reason for a solenoid to be polarity sensitive.   I suspect something else is going on there.

 

When you measured 3v on the starter side of the solenoid, what was the voltage on the battery side?  You can also measure the voltage across the solenoid to see if that is causing a drop.   Same with all the other cables and connections.

[OUTFXD]

2 hours ago, kencombs said:

When you measured 3v on the starter side of the solenoid, what was the voltage on the battery side?  You can also measure the voltage across the solenoid to see if that is causing a drop.   Same with all the other cables and connections.

 

Battery was turning in at a touch over 8v (I was using the 8v battery,  it normally weighs in at 8.4v). starter was clicking LOUD. I don't think supplied voltage is the issue.

 

I feel like the answer is RIGHT THERE.

 

My son suggested I use the old solenoid and put a 12v battery in the back, Isolated so It doesnt affect anything but the starter circuit.  I'd be tempted if I could figure out how to do it without drilling holes in my baby.

[OUTFXD]

3 hours ago, Sniper said:

Theoretically, and I say that because reality always trumps theory, a solenoid should be insensitive to polarity on the coil side and it shouldn't matter how the switched side is connected.  The only caveat to that would be if it had a diode across the coil side, which you won't be able to tell unless you open up the solenoid.

 

I have my old factory 6v solenoid from when I converted to 12v I could send you for testing purposes.  If it works, keep it.

That is what I would think.  However when I installed it.  I put the wires on opposite how they where on the old solenoid and it didnt even click.

 

Thank you for the offer. But I dont *think* the solenoid is the issue.

[kencombs]

21 minutes ago, OUTFXD said:

That is what I would think.  However when I installed it.  I put the wires on opposite how they where on the old solenoid and it didnt even click.

 

Thank you for the offer. But I dont *think* the solenoid is the issue.

 

43 minutes ago, OUTFXD said:

 

Battery was turning in at a touch over 8v (I was using the 8v battery,  it normally weighs in at 8.4v). starter was clicking LOUD. I don't think supplied voltage is the issue.

 

I feel like the answer is RIGHT THERE.

 

My son suggested I use the old solenoid and put a 12v battery in the back, Isolated so It doesnt affect anything but the starter circuit.  I'd be tempted if I could figure out how to do it without drilling holes in my baby.

If the 8v was measured at the solenoid end of the cable, and only 3v out then the solenoid is likely the cause.  The clicking is the cause of the difference as it is making intermittent contact.  Either the voltage to the solenoid/relay coil is low,  the ground through the case is bad, or the relay is defective.  At least that is what my logic tells me.

 

On a lot of JD lawn tractors there is a similar problem in the wiring having a design flaw that doesn't allow full current flow to the solenoid.  A lot of guys install a standard 4/5 pin cube relay.  It gets its coil power from the wire that normally goes to the solenoid from the key switch and it supplies power to the solenoid.  Have you checked the voltage to the relay coil when engaged?

[OUTFXD]

3 minutes ago, kencombs said:

 It gets its coil power from the wire that normally goes to the solenoid from the key switch and it supplies power to the solenoid.  Have you checked the voltage to the relay coil when engaged?

Assuming relay coil is the smaller  "start button" wire...  No I havent.  Conversly I have been using a Remote start switch that supplies power directly from the battery to the solenoid.

[OUTFXD]

What would cause Voltage drop WHILE the starter is "Engaged"?

[kencombs]

Is the remote start switch known good?  A lot of the newer ones have a really small wire and chintzy contacts. 

[kencombs]

Just now, OUTFXD said:

What would cause Voltage drop WHILE the starter is "Engaged"?

Poor contact/high resistance upstdeam of the coil.

[OUTFXD]

I was using the remote start to start the engine with the old solenoid and 12v battery.  I had everything else disconnected so the 12v wouldnt break the electrics.

 

so as of last week the remote start was good.

Edited February 11, 2022 by OUTFXD

[OUTFXD]

I have something tickling my grey matter(Kinda tickles).  When I first started upgrades on the system,  I could get it to turn over on the 6v battery.  But it would only do 3 or so revolutions and the battery would "wear down" and wouldnt turn the engine over, even with the battery at full charge.  Thought I had it licked a couple times only to have things go south.  Almost feels like SOMETHING is getting progressively worse.  The more I fix the system the badder it gets to compensate.

 

no Idea where I am going with this. Just venting mental pressure.

[OUTFXD]

On 2/9/2022 at 10:29 PM, 9 foot box said:

   I had a similar experience. I cleaned the wire connections at the ammeter gauge. That restored my gauges functioning and starter button working again.

 

Checked this and one of the ammeter gauge wires was indeed loose. Fixed it and now my ammeter works! Didnt help the starting issue though.

[kencombs]

1 hour ago, OUTFXD said:

I was using the remote start to start the engine with the old solenoid and 12v battery.  I had everything else disconnected so the 12v wouldnt break the electrics.

 

so as of last week the remote start was good.

good for 12v is not necessarily good at 12...   the relay coil draws more amps than its 12v version.   can you sub a 12ga wire and clips just as a test?  I can't help but think the issue is available current either from the battery or to that coil. rapid clicks as a symptom always point there.

 

[OUTFXD]

42 minutes ago, kencombs said:

good for 12v is not necessarily good at 12...   the relay coil draws more amps than its 12v version.   can you sub a 12ga wire and clips just as a test?  I can't help but think the issue is available current either from the battery or to that coil. rapid clicks as a symptom always point there.

 

Okay, here is a weird one, I ran a ground cable from the battery to the bolt holding the Solenoid.  It didnt do anything at first.  Then I tried to jump it from the 12v battery and it was rapidly clicking WHILE the engine turned over.  Engine started and I let it warm up a bit. Shut it off and started it on just the 8v battery.  It started but was clicking rapidly WHILE turning over.

 

This is making my head hurt.

 

I will try jumping the solenoid with a thicker wire to see what happens.

 

[OUTFXD]

No joy with the bigger wire. I tried jumping to the solenoid with an old battery cable.  Just rapid clicking.  LOTS of sparks when I touched the wire to the solenoid.