Plymouthy Adams Posted July 20, 2021 Report Posted July 20, 2021 eliminate a lot of the guess and gain access to properly do the valves at the same time.....pull the head and read the gasket, the valves seats/faces and inspect the cylinder wall etc at the same time... Quote
Los_Control Posted July 20, 2021 Report Posted July 20, 2021 Just now, Plymouthy Adams said: eliminate a lot of the guess and gain access to properly do the valves at the same time.....pull the head and read the gasket, the valves seats/faces and inspect the cylinder wall etc at the same time... Has great advice here. Pull the head, oil the valves inspect all ... I think I paid $100 for a engine rebuild gasket set from napa. But we have 2 different styles of advice here. imho the motor been rebuilt. It should be good unless it had sat outside or had access to water. Back in the day a farmer would hook a chain to it and tow it around the field until the compression came up and the engine started. I am that person. Others think you should disassemble the engine and go from there. The issue is so common for a engine sitting for years. I say get it running then decide to tear it apart ... others say tear it apart first. Is this a driver or a museum piece? I would think a 1962 falcon station wagon hauling it around a field would be appropriate to get the engine running. 1 Quote
wagoneer Posted July 23, 2021 Author Report Posted July 23, 2021 @Plymouthy Adams @Los_Control Earth, earth! But not a ground to be found! As far as I can tell: I have an electrical ground problem combined with low compression allowing for some burn, but no combustion. I think it's all pointing to opening up the top, knocking down a couple of valves, putting in a fresh gasket, and sanding the heck out of it my head, and maybe my whole engine to get some good ground spots for my starter, plugs, and my horn from the engine, trans, and frame. Maybe use some fresh head bolts? Something that conducts. Despite the whole engine and trans being metal, it seems they are not electrically connected very well. Thoughts on getting a decent ground? To add insult to injury, the same ground issue means my horn wasn't working, but I took some advice and the horn works...connected directly to the battery. --- I'm splitting my options at the moment. It seems everybody can fire up their old truck no matter the condition internally or number of cylinders working; the most I have been able to get now is some spit back smoke through the carburetor occasionally, and in the morning it was spitting up all the MMF from the cylinders on a regular basis. Everything but a bang. Smoke means something is burning, but not combusting. Checked my plugs, and they are clean. So I figured, I'm still doing some thing wrong. I rechecked my timing, and I found a couple of interesting things. I am not getting spark unless I explicitly run a jumper cable from a head bolt to positive ground on the battery. It seems the head bolt I put my 00 ground cable to isn't enough. If I ground bolt from the starter, then no spark either. Same if I ground to the distributor major adjustment bracket (in theory connected to spark plugs). I put the timing on 2 degrees BTDC, I opened the distributor cap and rotated minor adjustment until the points were max open with correct 0.20 points gap. Ground head bolt and smoke but no bang and a lot of engine turning. I'm not sure why it's so hard to get a decent circuit, I've pretty much whittled it down to minimal ignition circuit. I'm really hating that painted metal shields ground because it seems my spark plugs aren't grounding and completing the circuit through the head to the engine without an explicit jumper cable to a head stud. Maybe our engines were never really painted but just came naturally metal silver originally. Separately, and maybe related tom low compression (I still need to check again post- soaking in MMF), I *think*, but I'm not certain, as maybe it's overspill MMF, maybe my head bolts are "leaking", as they are very wet (all day?). I feel like I'm missing something very basic. Quote
Los_Control Posted July 23, 2021 Report Posted July 23, 2021 The obvious problem is you have paint! I like this style of ground strap, they have heft to them, look period correct. Ground engine to body, then body to frame. Anyplace you put a ground, you need to sand off the paint and get to bare metal for a good connection. Another tip is to use star washers. They have little barbs on them and when tightened they bite into the metal a bit more. Then if wanted you can tape off the cable and paint over the top ... to keep it clean looking. " the most I have been able to get now is some spit back smoke through the carburetor occasionally, and in the morning it was spitting up all the MMF from the cylinders on a regular basis. Everything but a bang. " Do you mean mmo from the cylinders is coming out the carb? Smoke from the carb would give a hint of timing issue, if oil from cylinders is coming out carb you have a timing issue. IMHO. A gasoline engine is a air pump. It sucks air from the carburetor explodes with the fuel/spark, exits through the exhaust. It is a one way street the air does not or should not go both directions. If anything is coming out of the carburetor, it kinda indicates your intake valves ore opening when your exhaust valves should be opening ... thus timing. Possible the distributor is installed 180 degrees out .... but also if the plug wires are clocked 1 position off. This is how my truck was and would not start. But a couple of cylinders were firing with the intake valves open and a small amount was coming back through the carb. How I now check plug wire installation. Pull the pipe plug on #6 cylinder. Lay a tiny square of toilette paper over the hole, rotate the engine by hand and when that cylinder builds compression will blow the paper off the hole. This cylinder is coming on TDC and ready to fire. Now insert your long 12" wire through the hole and rotate back and forth a few degrees.... Make sure you did not go past TDC. Now remove your distributor cap and the rotor should be pointing at #6 wire to fire that cylinder. I tried to start my truck for 2 days and found I needed to rotate my wires clockwise 1 position and then it started. Then of course fix your ground issue. If your 00 cable is not making a good ground, you can imagine a 12 awg wire is not much of a ground and may not be adequate? Quote
wagoneer Posted July 23, 2021 Author Report Posted July 23, 2021 On 5/22/2021 at 11:29 PM, JBNeal said: if ya really want to remove rust from the casting, remove all guts and externals so that the bare casting can go through an electrolysis treatment or evaporust soaking @JBNeal I have exactly done just that - I am a big fan of Evaporust! It's amazing stuff. I didn't even disassemble it. I carefully laid it in so the rubber seals weren't soaking in it, but in general the stuff should be pretty solid as it touch valve freeing brake fluid all day long! Before After Quote
Los_Control Posted July 23, 2021 Report Posted July 23, 2021 While this may work for your master cylinder .... if the passages are clean. Looking at the surface area for the gasket and cover .... Really is not clean enough for a ground connection ... Really should be shiny bright metal. To be honest I would be more concerned about clean passages then a ground connection.I kinda have my doubts the evaporust is good enough to do either chore. If your brakes work as you like, fine I am happy. I am only saying it is too rusty and corroded to actually get a good ground off of. Not that you would want to use the master cylinder as a ground .... If you call that clean you may have ground issues. Also brake issues. It is not clean. Clean I believe the bottom reservoir you are showing is cast iron and should be gray. The gasket surface can be sanded and cleaned to shiny metal. Then there is a steel lid that bolts down on top of it. I soaked my master cylinder in a bucket of carburetor cleaner for a few days. I am only saying evaporust kinda sucks and does not do a good job. I used it on my key chain. I wanted something very mild so I did not damage my memento key chain I bought at a concert 35 years ago. Yeah it was too mild and did a poor job. I will need to replace the chain. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 23, 2021 Report Posted July 23, 2021 23 minutes ago, Los_Control said: While this may work for your master cylinder .... if the passages are clean. Looking at the surface area for the gasket and cover .... Really is not clean enough for a ground connection ... why is there a need for a ground connection......the pressure operated switch does not complete any path to ground, it it did you would have a serious short on your hands....the brake switch only make connection internally.... Quote
Los_Control Posted July 23, 2021 Report Posted July 23, 2021 Just now, Plymouthy Adams said: why is there a need for a ground connection......the pressure operated switch does not complete any path to ground, Lets not nit pick here. My only point is if @wagoneerthinks this is quality cleaning. Then we need to have a talk about quality. We have a obvious issue with ground when we need to add a jumper wire with alligator clips from battery + ground to the distributor to get a spark. From what I see it could just be paint insulating the ground? ... needs to be cleaned. Now when @wagoneer post a photo of the cleaned master cylinder .... IMHO that master cylinder needs to be cleaned up a whole lot better then that to run on my truck .... evaporust in my experience will not clean it. I was only pointing out A: the surface is not clean. B: if you have ground issues, you better clean them better then that. I also said nobody would want to run a ground from a master cylinder. Done properly would probably work fine. A good ground needs to be established here. And then double check timing. Anything coming back through the carb ... while it does happen, it should not. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 23, 2021 Report Posted July 23, 2021 was not nit picking....read as ground was needed here ...just stating not so....was not out to criticize you and apologize if you read it this way, but posted solely to not cause confusion..... Quote
wagoneer Posted July 24, 2021 Author Report Posted July 24, 2021 Thanks @Los_Control and @Plymouthy Adams but I took a bit of an aside with the master cylinder - my point with the evaporust was getting rid of the rust before and after. I haven’t gone through and sanded the passages yet to clean it up inside and out. It seems to be painted black regardless. It looks to be cast iron instead of steel. evaporust works well to convert and remove the rust and leaves metal behind. A bit of clarification: The alligator clips from starter to negative on the coil is a substitute for the normal hot wire coming from the ignition . I removed that from the circuit when I figured out the ammeter was grounding my circuit through some short and preventing the secondary spark. the biggest ground fix was the jumper cable from positive battery to a stud bolt on the head. If I remove that, then my spark tester does t light up. my 00 negative cable is connect to a bolt on the head (not a head bolt though ). So it’s possible it’s not working because it’s painted underneath and the stud that I’m clipping against is mostly not. Quote
wagoneer Posted August 1, 2021 Author Report Posted August 1, 2021 (edited) On 7/20/2021 at 4:40 PM, Plymouthy Adams said: eliminate a lot of the guess and gain access to properly do the valves at the same time.....pull the head and read the gasket, the valves seats/faces and inspect the cylinder wall etc at the same time... Today I have done exactly this @Plymouthy Adams and it answered a lot of questions, as well as created some more work . I pulled the head off today to reveal: 1. Engine was rebuilt with .040 oversized pistons 2. honing marks were still very clear in the cylinder 3. I was able to free the sticking exhaust valve quite easily with a careful combination of brake fluid (thanks @JBNeal), PBrust, and plastic dead blow mallet so now I have all working valves! 4. there was quite a bit of carbon deposit on the piston heads, combustion chamber tops, and on the valve heads. this was amazing ! I found a video showing how to bring it back to shiny aluminum using wd40 and a green scotch beige scouring pad! it worked so well and was so quick. No amount of soaking would have done it so well. You can see a couple of pistons have been cleaned and others not in the pictures . I’m amazed; blown away. I’m mid clean but I’m expecting my pistons, valves and head will be nice and shiny once done! I’m being careful to only clean while piston at TDC and avoid piston walls. 4. I’m going to take this opportunity to inspect my oil pump, oil pressure relief valve, replace gaskets and springs, and reindex to the proper 7 o’clock position on my distributor . question: manual says set distributor to firing for #1, does that mean I should bring it to 2 degrees BTDC as the manual specifies or exactly TDC when indexing, and should 7 o’clock then really be 2 BTDC? 5. when rebuilt the engine builder *forgot or didn’t know* to put in the water distribution tube ! No water distribution tube must have led to a hot engine and probably why so much carbon deposit! 6. Cooling passages are full of crud and my water pump is rusted out; replacing that with new one. decided to punch my Welch plugs and flush out the engine as best as possible . So much crud it’s hard to believe even just in the head! 7. Will likely pull manifolds while I’m at it. 8. take the opportunity to set all the valve lashes properly with my fancy new tapper wrenches 9. set my timing properly ! 10. put it all together, cross my fingers, and hope the compression is back and it fires! Edited August 1, 2021 by wagoneer 1 Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 1, 2021 Report Posted August 1, 2021 good deal...you making progress.... Quote
wagoneer Posted August 1, 2021 Author Report Posted August 1, 2021 (edited) Oh so pretty! A little elbow grease, water displacement #40, sponge and a hard bristle attachment made my heads go from ugly to oh so pretty! I even put some of the children to work I did notice the cylinder head combustion chamber is very bumpy (not smooth as I would have thought). Is that normal? I also flushed my block and head with not too much stuff coming out before water was so clear. a productive weekend ; next up oil pump. To boot, I got to show up a 57 Chevy Belair! Edited August 1, 2021 by wagoneer 2 Quote
JBNeal Posted August 2, 2021 Report Posted August 2, 2021 Good work...tho I believe in giving credit where credit is due... The head casting at the combustion chambers is rough and difficult to clean carbon deposits...some folks grind and polish for performance gains Quote
wagoneer Posted August 6, 2021 Author Report Posted August 6, 2021 One of my near term goals was to reindex my distributor so tdc points to 7 o’clock instead of 9 o’clock . In principle, this shouldn’t matter though right, it’s just me being OCD?! We’ll, back in 2011 in the engine rebuild tips thread, @Plymouthy Adams stated the timing pump (timing chain?) needs proper alignment to get proper distributor position. fiest, did you really mean oil pump here or is it the timing chain that controls it? If the latter, I have a lot more work than I hoped so I’m hoping it’s the former . my understanding was I could change the index by adjusting the oil pump (remove and rotate so it’s at 7 pm instead of 9 in my case. Plymouthy Adams 4,989 Posted December 22, 2011 I have come behind a couple folks and found that you should properly index the timing pump to the cam at TDC for correct position of the distributor rotor. AND it is also a good time to install the distributor as more than not you will end up rotating the engine crank somewhere between this point and engine firing..Pay attention to the oil lines and see they are connected and tightened. Lastly..test you fuel system prior to start to ensure the float is not sticking as it has been laid aside for the rebuild period. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 timing of the distributor rotor for 7 is done by meshing the teeth of the oil pump with the gear on the cam as the pump drives the distributor.....10 year old typo more than not where pump timing is probably missing the / for pump/timing similar to your FIEST probably means FIRST and your REINDEX just means to INDEX though maybe a second or third time. wagoneer Senior Member, have way too much spare time on my hands Members 57 222 posts Location: Raleigh, NC My Project Cars:1948 Chrysler Windsor 1950 Dodge B2B - Project Elise Author Posted 1 hour ago One of my near term goals was to reindex my distributor so tdc points to 7 o’clock instead of 9 o’clock . In principle, this shouldn’t matter though right, it’s just me being OCD?! We’ll, back in 2011 in the engine rebuild tips thread, @Plymouthy Adams stated the timing pump (timing chain?) needs proper alignment to get proper distributor position. fiest, did you really mean oil pump here or is it the timing chain that controls it? If the latter, I have a lot more work than I hoped so I’m hoping it’s the former . my understanding was I could change the index by adjusting the oil pump (remove and rotate so it’s at 7 pm instead of 9 in my case. Quote
wagoneer Posted August 6, 2021 Author Report Posted August 6, 2021 Thanks for the clarification @Plymouthy Adams I figured it was a typo. It's on my to do list for this weekend. I found some other threads on this forum that cover it too. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 yeah....this is common to have a dropped letter or misspelled word.....was not trying to make you out for a fool with my quote...only showing how easy it happens. As this was discussed long ago and pointed out in earlier factory books was no mention of the 7 position....only later in Mopar books was this 7 mentioned and as always the aftermarket books would repeat factory lingo. I like the idea of the standard 7 position so when having a problem with ignition and such and an owner should have to seek help....there is not the, here's your problem with tower indexing as will be the first find by many though it be not the actual problem and corrected at the cap towers a problem injected during poor troubleshooting that means yo still have the first problem and will now have to correct the injected problem should the man get lucky and find a bone.....many do not understand the ignition system as it is in the first place and have so much difficulty because they do not PROVE what is right but only guess at what may be wrong. Quote
chrysler1941 Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 I have to admit I don't know what position my rotor is when firing. I don't care either. My concern was installing ignition wirings so they look neat, same distance, same bend and curve going to cap. Uninsulated plug terminal pointing same direction etc. No...it's not a disorder, I just like to see nice wirings. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 1 hour ago, chrysler1941 said: I have to admit I don't know what position my rotor is when firing. I don't care either. My concern was installing ignition wirings so they look neat, same distance, same bend and curve going to cap. Uninsulated plug terminal pointing same direction etc. No...it's not a disorder, I just like to see nice wirings. Its is not a compulsion at all it is simply attention to detail that everyone should be willing to work toward. There is little that is so detracting from a car to see it from a distance in nice paint, get up close, interior dressed....look in the boot, under the hood and or under the car and NOTHING was done and looks like a family of goats and rats live there...I bet if you opened the glove box a passel of "cut corners" would fall out. Wiring harness...frayed, split open wires dangling...I'll send you a dollar if you need it to tape the harness...!! (not...go fund your own project just stating it is not expensive or intensive) Quote
Los_Control Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 Might be comparing apples to oranges. Years ago I had a little 4cyl Datsun that had a really nice "newer" crate engine installed. It ran really well and drove it for months. I always felt as if something was off on it and could run better. Then I found the distributor was 1 tooth off and corrected at the cap. I fixed that and it ran perfect. I just never could get it to run correct with the plug wires rotated to fix it. I know our distributors are slotted running off the oil pump. But, the oil pump is geared and running off the cam. Seems it really does not matter so much on our engines, there are a lot of people running without it set with #1 @7 0'clock. My truck is no different .... it runs "good" with the plug wires rotated counter clockwise 1 position. While it may never make a real difference on our trucks. I will never feel comfortable with it as is. When I need to set the dwell, timing, idle and air/fuel .... I will correct the oil pump installation first. For now it runs and starts "good" I will fry the big fish then work my way to the smaller ones. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 Los..as 1 is 180 from 7....you just need to go 180 on the distributor shaft (rotor will now point to 7 TDC 1 and index your wiring on the tower Quote
Los_Control Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 Just now, Plymouthy Adams said: Los..as 1 is 180 from 7....you just need to go 180 on the distributor shaft (rotor will now point to 7 TDC 1 and index your wiring on the tower Now you messing with me PA I do not have a 7 cylinder truck .... I feel more then I know ... Lets talk the Datsun. 1 tooth off, then rotate the plug wires. Then try to set the timing. .... Trying to rotate the points plate to compensate for the timing while rotating the distributor. while adjusting for vacuum ... It never ran as it should. Once one tooth was corrected on installing the distributor it ran perfect ... while it ran good or acceptable before. Like it was always 1/2 a skip off and never where it should be. So I personally would go through the extra steps to set the oil pump correctly to get the timing correct, to make the vacuum advance work as it should ... set the dwell. Only if I was fine tuning.. Maybe it does not matter .... peace of mind if you go through the effort to set it. My truck as is runs fine with the oil pump off installation. Someday I will change it. Quote
Los_Control Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 Just saying we can make it run .... does anyone really care about the points, dwell, vacuum advance, timing marks? These engines are so primitive. I feel more then I know .... you want to set this thing up correct from the factory to get best performance. Even though they run as is. Quote
chrysler1941 Posted August 6, 2021 Report Posted August 6, 2021 I'm trying to understand you. So basically what your are saying is if we don't set #1 at 7 o'clock, then it's not possible to set timing, dwell and have a vacuum ? Quote
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