Seat Belts 1939 P8

[Lloyd]

I'm looking at installing 3 point seat belts in my 39 P8. I would like to get retractable belts but measuring between the seat and side pillar I only have 1" at the bottom. I sent Julianos an email asking about the dims on their retractors. They responded with 3.75" tall by 3.75" wide by 2.75" deep. Looking at Seat Belts Plus theirs are 4" tall X 3.5" wide X 2.5" deep. Julianos certainly has the better mounting kits using #8 bolts and their backing plates look beefier as compared to SBP that appears to use #5 bolts with fender washers as backing plates.

Even the Julianos L-Bracket has an added notch for strength.

Problem is the retractors won't fit in the space I have.

I have thought about using non-retractable 3 point belts, that certainly would work but I would really like to put the retractors in if I can find a way. There are only two ways I can think of, modify the existing seat or using another seat from another car. I don't really want to use a seat from another car. To modify the existing seat I would have to cut away the metal part that wraps around the lower corner and on the inside cut following the same V-shaped contour as the inside lower part which is covered in dark brown carpet. I would be removing the outside part that wraps around. Measuring the space this would allow it looks like it would give enough room to mount the retractors. I would have to mount them on the side pillar because I would need to move them up enough to clear the carpet covered lower section of the seat. I'm hesitant because its the only seat I have. But I'm leaning towards it.

If I do this I was thinking about getting the belts at SBP because the retractors are smaller in width and depth but getting the mounting kits from Julianos. I've checked the bolt size and its the same on both.

After seat belt installation I plan on reupholstering so if I'm going to cut this piece I need to do it before. I'm looking at doing it today. but I wanted to toss this out there and hopefully get some feed back.

 

Has anyone installed a set of retractable seat belts in a 39 P8?

Has anyone installed the 3 point non-retractable seat belts? How are they working out?

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

so far every car I have installed 3 points has been done very successfully using clean later model belts from donor vehicles in the wrecking yard at usually 10 bucks a set at tops in my local yard....last set was a hard to find color, burgundy, but did find a nice set with fully enclosed retractors, all hardware, covers and even the associated wiring for the seat belt light....10.00 the pair and the yard helped me with removing them.    I suggest a walk through a local yard if possible.....if nothing else....you get some insight on mounting viewing the many models.  The install in this case allowed me to use the very mounts of the car, fits and look like it should have been there factory and instead of flopping non retractor shoulder as before...disregard the paint color...getting total color change and burgundy theme interior..

 

Again, you can do this usually in a better way than generic bolt on......do that walkabout....

Edited December 11, 2020 by Plymouthy Adams

[Lloyd]

Thanks Tim, but I've only got about 1" of space between the seat and the front edge of the door pillar - unless I slide the seat all the way forward and that aint gonna work. I would need a retractor that is about an inch in depth. Its hard for me to imagine how a retractor could work being that slim. Do they have them that slim?

 

 

[sidevalvepete]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

so far every car I have installed 3 points has been done very successfully using clean later model belts from donor vehicles in the wrecking yard at usually 10 bucks a set at tops in my local yard....last set was a hard to find color, burgundy, but did find a nice set with fully enclosed retractors, all hardware, covers and even the associated wiring for the seat belt light....10.00 the pair and the yard helped me with removing them.    I suggest a walk through a local yard if possible.....

Definitely a good solution. Am going to give it a go myself, being pretty late in my rebuild. Safety is paramount but functionality and appearance can be found too one hopes.

[Lloyd]

OK. There is a "Pick Your Part" salvage lot I have been to not far away. I'll go take a look.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Lloyd, on one install I was able to also utilize modern belt retractors that were recessed into the structure of the donor body originally and in turn was able to retro fit behind the B post in same said manner.....but I will admit first and foremost....I do not mess with 4 door cars and as such may not be able to assist here except to say some two doors with rear seats....one can still mount on the back corners where the sail and package tray form along with the rear cross brace behind the seat...very structurally sound in this area on the average.....carry a tape, some paper and pencil for notes and if possible a camera and log color and donor application so you can sort and refer to later.....good luck.....I have so far been successful finding retro belts...but often it takes opening many many car doors in the process.

Edited December 11, 2020 by Plymouthy Adams

[Lloyd]

I'll be back..

[Richard Cope]

Hi Lloyd, I have Julianos retractable 3 point belts in my 39 P8 Business Coupe.  Work good, except like to get some type of roll up for the center belts.  Is your car a coupe or sedan?  I won't be able to get photos for a week or so as am out of town.  Will check my hard drive to see if there are any photos on it.  

Regards, Richard

[Lloyd]

Hi Richard, how are you? I have a 4 door sedan with a pillar in between the doors. It would be a bit different from a coupe but I would still like to see pics of your install. I looked at Julianos and honestly I feel like they might be better quality but right now I'm having to consider the size. SBP's retractors are not as wide or deep as Julianos. although they are a bit taller. But its width and depth that I need to consider. My pillar is 2-1/2" wide metal to metal, add the windlass and its about 3-3/4". Then I've got about 1-1/2" clearance from the forward part of the pillar to the seat.

Its pretty obvious that a retractor is not going to fit at the bottom of the pillar as it is now.

 

I just got back from the "Pick A Part". I looked at a couple dozen cars, trucks and vans, then it started raining. Seems they are all between 2.5 - 3 inch depth. Ones that retract from both sides are about 2". Mostly these are the ones that the retractor is built into the seat. Retractors mounted on the pillar - all of these were behind a vinyl cover that stretched the entire height of the pillar and most were inset into the pillar at the bottom with the belt coming out of a slot in the vinyl and going up to the top anchor. Cutting into my door pillar is not an option. It isn't wide enough. Mounting underneath the seat and coming thru the side of the seat frame might be. It would add a rubbing point and another angle to the belt. It may also angle the belt to the anchor when I adjust the seat unless I put the top anchor on the seat to. Another thing I saw was a retractor mounted below the floorboard. What really caught my eye was one mounted on the door, I included a pic of it below.

 

1991 Oldsmobile Cutless Ciera SL

Interesting..

 

More and more I'm thinking if I want to mount retractors I will have to modify my seat. It seems the easiest option. Before I go cutting though I'm going to order the seat belts from SBP since the width and depth on theirs is 1/4" less than Julianos. It will help to have it in hand for test fitting before attempting any alterations.

It will be a few days before I get them but if anyone else has any comments I'm all ears.

 

[Andydodge]

Lloyd.......I used an Oz aftermarket seat belt set when i installed lap/sash retractable front belts in my 1940 Dodge years ago, I mounted the retractable piece on the lower door pillar with the upper bracket also on the door pillar by inserting a steel plate thru an opening then pop riveting it in place, its then held firm against the inner pillar by the 7/16th standard seat belt bolt, as is the retracter mechanism.......the inner piece is the standard push button stalk...........sorry I haven't any better pics............but you can see the lower bracket jutting forward that the retractor bolts to...........the 2nd pic shows the way the centre button stalks are between the seat and console........dunno if any of this helps.............andyd  

[Lloyd]

Hey Andy. Thanks.Your door pillar looks like mine. The install you decribe sounds like Julianos and SBP method using the plate at the top. The buckets look nice, do you remember what they came out of? If I swapped out my front seat I could solve the whole thing. I just don't have enough room to mount retractors with the stock bench seat. 

I'm going to get a retracter from SBP so I'll have something to try rather than just a tape measure. I would rather use Julianos although I wonder if in reality SBP and Julianos are the same just Julianos encased theirs in a vinyl cover. I would like to see whats under the cover. I've looked at a number of other after market belts and the majority look like the same ones as SBP. They all say assembled in America with imported parts. 

I'll have to wait till I actually get a set to really decide but one thing I know. I want retractable belts. 

[Lloyd]

Doesn't look like modifying the seat is the way to do it. I'm afraid the piece I need to remove will weaken the support for the backrest and cause problems down the road. I don't see a good way to add the support back if I do cut it out. I might be able to figure out additional support once I remove the fabric but all in all it looks like a bad idea. The pics below show the piece I'm looking to remove which would allow enough room for the  retracters. I would be cutting along the inside of the masking tape. Looking at the inside of the frame it would be along the backside of the curve.

 

 

Far as I can figure it only leaves one of three options.

Try to put the retracter and top anchor point inside the seat.

Get the non-retractable 3 point seat belt.

Swap out the seat.

 

I really don't want the seat belts flopping around, but if that's all I have left then that's what I'll do but what I'm thinking is make another trip to the "Pick-A-Part" salvage yard and see what seats might fit.

I remember seeing some bucket/bench style seats with a built in console that looked nice. Or a bench seat with the folding center arm rest.

 

Anyone that has swapped out there seats got any suggestions for a seat that has worked out really well?

[Sniper]

Why don't you just mount the retractor behind the seat instead of alongside it?

[Plymouthy Adams]

sorry you having such a problem....I modified a bench seat...gets quite involved.....as for buckets...for me that is the only way to go and a much as other hate them in an old car....I love them and that is just a part of my personalizing my cars.  This coupe  has late buckets..built in seatbelt to the seat frame.....you can make these a bolt in but not my recommendation and I highly suggest weld in of donor floor mounts.....modifying is more involved than many care to do and when they do many cut corners.   This may give you an idea of the depth a mod can go to mount late models to  be as the original design as the donor...

 

 

[Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Why don't you just mount the retractor behind the seat instead of alongside it?

Hey Sniper,

Thanks for weighing in.

Not sure exactly where you mean.

Mounting it to the floorboard aft of the pillar would put it in the way of the back door entrance.

Mounting it to the seat itself it may be possible to mount them on the bottom ledge at the back.

I would still need a top anchor. So the belt would have to go up thru the back of the seat and come out at the top corner.

[Lloyd]

5 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

sorry you having such a problem....I modified a bench seat...gets quite involved

 

Ain't nothing but a thing Tim. Honestly I like doing this kind of stuff and I appreciate your help.

But you did answer a question I was asking myself. If I swap seats should I try and get the donor floor mounts as well. Don't know how I could get those out in the salvage yard.. Seems I would need a grinder with a cutting disc but there isn't any electricity out there. I don't have a battery operated one.

[Sniper]

For some reason I had it in my head it was a coupe with no back seat. You might find the retractors are small enough that they don't seriously interfere with the rear entry. 

 

I used wesco belts in my coupe and their instructions mention how to floor mount the retractors.

 

Link to the installation pdf

 

https://www.wescoperformance.com/seat-belt-install-3-point-retract.html#top

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

I agree with you....only time I extracted a donor floor sections and seats I had a trailer equipped with a generator, my compressor and various electrical and air driven cutters and grinders.  It was still not a quick and easy task as you working on dirt for the most part and limited in means to support and stay safe.  Anyone who says the modern cars are built cheap and flimsy has never tried to cut one apart I assure you.  I buy a donor vehicle when doing a retro and utilize as much as possible off the carcass before ditching the remnants at the recyclers.   It is cheaper and easier in the long run....but again, it is an involved process but hey, this is where the fun is at in my opinion.  

[Lloyd]

For some reason I had it in my head it was a coupe with no back seat. You might find the retractors are small enough that they don't seriously interfere with the rear entry. 

 

Yeah its a 4 door. I've only got about 1-1/4 inches between the pillar and the seat. Thats why I was looking at modifying the seat trying to provide enough space for the retracter.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Lloyd
Quote

[Sniper]

When I converted my 87 Diplomat over to 4 speed I needed the shifter hump, found a donor in the boneyard and bought a cordless sawzall clone to cut it out as that was cheaper than what the boneyard wanted to gas axe it out for me.  If you already have any cordless tools you might find a cordless sawzall or grinder that uses the same batteries, just a thought.

[Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

I buy a donor vehicle when doing a retro and utilize as much as possible off the carcass before ditching the remnants at the recyclers.

 

Yep, that would be the best way, lot more convenient.

Looks like I'll be making another trip to the salvage yard. Kinda excited about it really. Like waking up Christmas morning..

 

Thanks Sniper, the cordless sawzall sounds interesting.

[Frank Elder]

I've had people refuse to ride my ol' Dodge because there are no seat belts.......it's one of the more endearing qualities to me. If I die a horrible impaled or mangled death that's my choice to ride free and easy.?

[Plymouthy Adams]

it is a personal choice for certain...many arguments for and against on the retrofit....I have a couple cars that are NOT retrofitted and not planning to do so either.  I think belts are a good idea....but there should not be a law for an adult to buckle if he does not wants....the ole lance of death if steering is not upgrade to collapsible column is also a risk even with belts...these ole cars do not have engineered crumple zone....

[Eneto-55]

On 12/12/2020 at 9:56 AM, Lloyd said:

Doesn't look like modifying the seat is the way to do it. I'm afraid the piece I need to remove will weaken the support for the backrest and cause problems down the road. I don't see a good way to add the support back if I do cut it out. I might be able to figure out additional support once I remove the fabric but all in all it looks like a bad idea. The pics below show the piece I'm looking to remove which would allow enough room for the  retracters. I would be cutting along the inside of the masking tape. Looking at the inside of the frame it would be along the backside of the curve.

 

 

Far as I can figure it only leaves one of three options.

Try to put the retracter and top anchor point inside the seat.

Get the non-retractable 3 point seat belt.

Swap out the seat.

 

I really don't want the seat belts flopping around, but if that's all I have left then that's what I'll do but what I'm thinking is make another trip to the "Pick-A-Part" salvage yard and see what seats might fit.

I remember seeing some bucket/bench style seats with a built in console that looked nice. Or a bench seat with the folding center arm rest.

 

Anyone that has swapped out there seats got any suggestions for a seat that has worked out really well?

I like bench seats myself, at least in a vehicle of this era.  When I scrapped out our 93 Chrysler T&C I kept the second row bench seat for my younger brother, as he has a 31 Plymouth, and the width of that narrower minivan seat is just right for that vintage.  I still have the back row bench from that minivan, well I sort of have it.  I'm still storing it for my son, who wanted it for a couch.  I'm not sure of the width, but I could measure it.  It might be just about right.  Unfortunately, though, I don't have the tracks for that seat anymore - scrapped them a couple of years ago, to make room for P15 parts.  

Wish I still had those tracks now, because what I want to look into is the idea of building the retractors into the seat bottom itself.  But the tracks are not built for the kind of force that would be brought to bear on them in a crash.  I would replace that part of the seats, and also fasten more securely to the floor - larger bolts, like modern vehicles.  I would build that into the stock seats if at all possible.  So I wish now that I had an extra front seat to experiment with.  If that doesn't work out, I'll go with the non-retractable, like what was in my 72 Dodge Coronet.  (I also saved the pillar belt height adjuster, and will use those in the Plymouth, regardless what I do about a retractor.)

[Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Eneto-55 said:

When I scrapped out our 93 Chrysler T&C I kept the second row bench seat for my younger brother, as he has a 31 Plymouth, and the width of that narrower minivan seat is just right for that vintage.

 

Thanks Eneto. Knowing what you got the seat from helps. I would like to put a bench in there as we'll. 40/60 with the folding armrest. Cup holders and built in seat belts. I measured the width of my 39 and it's 49". 

I'll be headed back to the Pick-a- part yard tomorrow. 

I'll make it a point to check any mini vans I see.