Help Wanted Incorrect Parts - Axle Outer Grease Seals

[keithb7]

I have an original "Preliminary" parts book here for my 1938 Plymouth. Looking at rear axle group, outer grease/dust seal.  I ordered a set based on the part number provided in the parts book. That part is 651725.  When I went to install it, it fits up and bolts in just fine. However the centre hole is for about a 1.750" diameter axle. (measured where the seal sits). My axle measured up at about 1.376" in this same spot. The old seal that I removed from my car is the right size. The new one, too large. It stands to reason that Chrysler likely had larger diameter axle shafts for 7 passenger and limo models of the same car. No? Looking in parts manual, I do see that there are different axle part numbers listed for these larger cars, with probably a greater payload rating.

 

One  thing that stumps me is, when looking in my 1938 parts manual they only show 1 size outer axle seal for all models. Part number 651725. 

Another thing, when I look on line for 651725 seals, it appears to me they all are for the larger 1.750" diameter axle.

 

There is no part number on the seal that I removed. I don't want to order another set of incorrect seals.  Can anyone able to help me with the proper seal number to order? Pic below comparing my removed seal and new 651725 seal. Perhaps, the incorrect seal was provided to me, even though the original box does read "For Chrysler, Desoto, Dodge, Plymouth 651725 or 891437"

Thanks in advance. - Keith

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by keithb7

[desoto1939]

Keith I looked in my National Oil seal catalog and the proper National Outer Oil seal is number 5797 for the Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler and Desoto from 1936 - 1942 for the 6 cylinder cars

but for cyler 8 cylinder the same oil seal is listed as number 5688 from 1936-37 for the c9,c10,c11 an c17  and from 1937-39  the number is 5849 for c15,c20 and c24 so you might have received the incorrect outer oil seal  I would ask the vendor if he is a major parts supply house if they had sent you the incorrect outer oil seal.  Seem to me that you have the wrong set and you need the National 5797

 

This is why I collect and make available the various cross reference catalogs for all of the owner. Printed documentation is the best policy to have when getting parts

 

Rich HArtung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[keithb7]

Thanks Richard. I am weary about the National 5797 number also. Looking at some pics of it, the center hole seems like the larger 1.75" hole. Which I already have, and is too big.

If I could find actual dimensions of the shaft size for the 5797 seal I could confirm whether or not it will work.  I will endeavour to try and find the 5797 dimensions.

[Sniper]

Put the part number in the selector tool at Timken, it will give you the specs.

 

https://www.timken.com/engineering-tools/seal-selection-tool/

[desoto1939]

Keith:

 

Rich Hartung Here:

 

I just took out my national 5797   and another oil seal made by  trostel  the trostel number is t5797  and when I measure the  opening in the back like you have inyour pictures I get the same opening size 1.75.

 

Now they did make an seal that would mount behind the 5797 that made the whole opening smaller to help stop the grease and axle oil from being pushed out of the axle shaft.  I might still have a few of these left inmy supply but the outer oil seal that you are showing is the correct oil seal.

 

rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[dpollo]

National 5797 is the seal I have used.   

[desoto1939]

I have checked my 1937 - 52 mopar catalog and the correct outer oil seal is is the national 5797.  I have a good feeling that some prior owner could not find the correct outer oil seal and found one with the same mouting holes but and smaller opening for the axle. and installed that seal.  So all of us have used the 5797 oil seal and all of my cross reference catalogs pint to the same seal with the opening that you have.

 

If you could clear off the old material on the front of the old oil seal then you might find a number stamped intot eh flange they ususaully had the oil seal number stamped into the flange for identification.

 

Rich hartung

 

Rich

[keithb7]

@desoto1939 Perhaps I do need the smaller seal you mentioned that mounts behind  the 5797 seal. To help hold the grease in. The 5797 leaves a considerable gap all the way around the axle. It won’t retain grease well as it sits, and will allow considerable dust to enter. I shall take another look at my parts and service books to see if I can spot this extra inner seal you speak of. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by keithb7

[Sniper]

My 51 shows an inner and an outer oil seal.  the inner is Timken number 6241S and has an inner diameter of 1.375, outer diameter 2.441"

 

the outer is Timken number 450775 and has an inner diameter of 1.375, outer diameter 2.690"

 

Both are seals only, no retainer.  Not sure if either number will work for you, but witht he specs you can measure and figure that out.

 

Use the link I posted above to cross reference competitors numbers and Timken will give their number, if there is an equivalent, as well as the specifications. 

 

[keithb7]

Thanks @Sniper. When I google search Timken 450775 nothing looking like my grease seal appears. I believe your 51 seal taps into the brake backing plate. It is retained by an interference fit in the backing plate. The earlier type has a built in retainer and mounts on the 5 backing plate studs. 

@desoto1939 does McCord 8430 come up in your cross reference books? 
 

I don’t quite see a viable solution yet. See my video here for a clear visual, and explanation. Thanks for all your help so far. 
 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by keithb7

[Sniper]

Just press a new seal into your retainer.  You know the shaft size, measure the housing size/old seal outer diameter and use the Timken selector tool to see what fits.

[Tooljunkie]

No chance this fits part of the drum?  Just curious as i see no evidence of seal contacting  axle   Shaft. They always leave a mark. 
i would almost consider machining a sleeve to slip onto  shaft That seal could run on. Then again, i have a lathe. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

The seal does seal on the drum.

[keithb7]

@TooljunkieI think you may have solved my dilemma. I suspect you may be right about the hub of the drum sliding into that gap.  The lights came on when I read your comment. 
 

This is my first time dealing with this style of axle assembly. Someone else installing a different grease seal had me mis-guided. 
 

Thanks everyone. I think this mystery has been solved. I should have posted the video showing my dilemma clearly, in the beginning. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Found a couple pics of a brake job I did a few years ago on a P2 1936 Plymouth coupe...

I replaced the seals that fit into the retainer but don't recall the number or seal...

Shown is just the out drum seal.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Dodgeb4ya

[keithb7]

Good insight @Dodgeb4ya

Wow. A real live axle puller that I’ve only seen in my old manuals. Cool! 

Edited March 3, 2020 by keithb7

[Dodgeb4ya]

I feel fortunate that I have most all the original Miller service tools for the flathead powered MoPars.

[Tooljunkie]

In glad i was able to shed some light on your dilemma.

As this  axle Isnt what we are used to seeing when it comes apart, and the drum on the floor was face up, i was pretty sure the sealing surface was the drum itself. 
and it was confirmed. 

[desoto1939]

Keith: I saw your video and then when you turned over the original grease seal uyou had move the inner flex seal that I was taling about the flex seal sits inside the 5797 original seal.  There for the nation 5797 looks to big

 

We have solved the issue.

 

call me at my home phone 610-630-9188  or cell 484-431-8157  after 9:30

 

rich Hartung

[desoto1939]

19 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Good insight @Dodgeb4ya

Wow. A real live axle puller that I’ve only seen in my old manuals. Cool! 

I have this same miller axle puller and a lot of the older miller tools.  I just found a Miller MT19C  Brake tool with the 6 sleeves and it is all complete and this will be avialble to be sold.

 

I also have three miller tool catalogs that cover from 1930-55

 

I have now solved th eissue regarding the opening on the outer oil seal.

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[desoto1939]

fter looking at your video I saw that you had what is called the Champ-Items rear wheel Grease seal. I have two boxes that list them for different year so look at the pictures.

Yes you have the correct outer oil seal.  These extra brass inner grease seals  filled the void between the  hole of the alxe shaft opening and the oil seal to help close the opening to prevent grease from coming out the axle.

 

These insters were mounted behind the original oil seal and were help in place by the pressure of the five bolts that held the 5797 oil seal against the end of the axle housing.

 

On your car for some reason someone must have cut down the outer flange and installed the grease seal insert whith in the original outer oil seal.

 

Hope this explains what you found and now you can use the old inner seal or look for some on Ebay.

If anyone wantst a better explanation you can call me directly on my cell of home phone.

 

When I saw your video and was looking in the end of the axle there looked to be an excessive amount of grease. The inner oil seal should prevent the differential oil from passing this oil seal.  Also on the bottom of the alxe near the backing plate there is a very small lbolt that is used to lube the inner axle bearing.  Check you appropriate shop manual.  Do Not and I again say Do Not use a grease gun to grease the inner axle bearing.  Using a grease gun will force too much grease into the bearing and then the grease will work its way out the axle and then the grease will get on your brakes shoes and lining.

 

The proper way is to remove the bolt and then use your thumb and push some bearing grease into the small hole to grease the inner bearing. This prevent you from forcing too much grease in the bearings.

 

This is knowledge that I have gained by owning my 1939 desoto for over 32 Years

 

Keith call me if you have any questions.

 

Rich HArtung

cell 484-431-8157

home 610-630-9188

Edited March 4, 2020 by desoto1939

[desoto1939]

Have not had any reply from the original poster to get any comments from him after letting him know via a PM to check the posting about his issue.  This no reply shows that there is no respect to anyone trying to answer a question and you take you time to get pictures and explain the situation.  I guess the newer antique car owners just expect us seasoned owners to just give them the answers and never expect to get a reply back from the original poster.

 

This type of non reply makes me NOT want to take my time to help someone because of the lack of concern and not even following up on a PM that was sent to the original poster.

 

So if you ever post an issue, the best that everyone should do is last least put up a reply if the issue was solved or not and thank the members that have assisted in providing assistance.

 

We all can learn new things and the passing along knowledge is great but at what expense.  Any and all comments welcomed.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[Tooljunkie]

I agree Rich. But unlike myself some use their home computer and perhaps dont get a chance to visit the forum all that often. 
some acknowledgment at least makes us feel useful. 
i dont let it bother me. I sent a private message to another member not far from me offering assistance, even a no thank-you would have been enough. 

Also, this isnt the easiest forum to navigate so he may have completely missed your message. 

dont let it discourage you,your knowledge is valuable.and i’m sure it’s appreciated. 

[keithb7]

@desoto1939,  I have not had the time to sit down, digest and fully understand what exactly you said. If you have read many of my posts, you'll find that I seek to fully understand not only how a part works, but why.  I quickly read your posts, skimmed over them as I had a busy week, and did not fully digest them. I am sorry if my lack of a response in 2 days upset you . As of this writing I still have not digested your posts regarding my oil seal issue. I want to fully grasp the topic. I appreciate the time you put in to help, and the posts you made. I will read them probably tomorrow evening and respond at that time.  

 

Your comments appear to be out of frustration and emotion.  I post a ton on here and I am respectful to others, and grateful for the help I get. I think my posts versus my reputation points ratio, supports my positive activity on this great forum. I am  sorry I didn't meet you time line expectations for a response. Sometimes life, family and my job take the best of my week. I don't always get all the time here that I would like.  

 

Regards, Keith

[desoto1939]

keith:  Not that hard to understand what I posted.  The extra seals that I had shown you were made to take of the extra space that you think is to big. The brass seal sits directly behind the outer oil seal and held there in place just by the pressure of the bolts that hold the outer seal.  Sometimes these are call trueflex seal.  They are nor required but if you have an issue with grease coming out your axle then these will help. On your example someone found a trueflex seal that just was the same inner diameter of the inner section of your national 5797 oil seal.

 

My response was because you sounded inyour posting that you felt that we were giving you the wrong information and was questioning everyone reply.  I originally told you about th eextra seal and when I saw you video is saw the brass inner seal move and that is how I knew what you had and was able to provide you with the answer.  Yes most people do not even reply back to postings and when people take their time to get pictures and post the  information sometimes you get the feeling that they do not care and they got their issue solved and then forget about to let everyone know that it was fixed. That's all that I am trying toget across here. I am not persaonally mad at you. I am glad that you read the posting and if you need more clarification please feel free to ask.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com