Chrysler A161 Prototype Hemi

[knuckleharley]

On 2/2/2021 at 10:48 AM, Plymouthy Adams said:

line drawing does not an exhaust noise make....?   I am not from Missouri but will have to take the Missouri stance on this topic 

 

IF this A161 was a success story and GIVEN that Chrysler ran the flathead in production till 1959 in cars...even later in commercial applications and military vehicles....why were there basically zero advances in design and engineering other than compression to allow for the better grade fuels in constant development and basically that tapered to no improvements after the development of the slant 6   

 

the line drawing above and the head pictured that is supposedly the a161 head ...the vertical bored small pushrod holes would not work comparing the two if these supposedly represent the same engine....

 

I do not want to contradict someone as knowlegable as you,but MY thoughts are that with all the military and industrial contracts that Chrysler had they were already having a hard time filling all the orders,so why spend time and money to fix something that wasn't "broken"?

 

True,most of these flat 6's were not going to pin you back against the seat as you accelerated,but they WERE insanely reliable,and provided plenty of power for the driving most people did in cars back then. It wasn't until the interstate highways started being poured that people felt the need for a higher cruising speed and more "passing power" on 2 lane roads.

 

And.......,when they did trash  the flat 6,they replaced it with one of the most magnificent designs ever developed,the slant 6. Good luck finding a more reliable and durable gasoline engine! It breaks my heart that you have to buy a V-6 instead if you buy a new car or truck with a 6.

 

BTW,a final note is we all need to keep in mind that it is NOT the engineers that make these determinations. It's the bean counters.  In the final anaylsis,it is ALWAYS the accountants that make the final decisions in the corporate world. If it costs more money and doesn't seem likely to increase profits,it just doesn't happen.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by knuckleharley

[HotRodTractor]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

if ever a running model I doubt it ever got further than Chrysler's proving grounds.....if and when such test donkeys when released to the public for general testing there is always a few that got away....while they did not breed and proliferate there would be evidence of this engine still in private hands I would suspect.  They had some turbine cars get away that was by law destined for destruction on x drop dead date and these were in the neighborhood of 50 examples.   Still way too much conflicting data on the internet in assuming this or that...that paper drawing shows a redesigned/machine block....Allpar states only a head mod...the cast head picture of the head bolts show they did not use but the two going into the exhaust port of the block....the cooling passages would have to be sealed...of the remaining 5 non used bolts...sealant is an easy work around on this...I can 'allow' you a prototype pass but not a OTR beast of burden powerplant Chrysler is famous for producing....I do not think if this was such a success Chrysler would not have phased it into production...V8 power in a inline six, continued casting of current blocks with no change in machining, would have set Ford and GM back a decade of R&D to catch up.....forgive me if I just accept a cup of coffee and slice of apple pie from this smorgasbord. 

I never said anything about testing by the general public. One or two company owned cars for early testing wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility. 
 

I don't disagree about making assumptions. I am looking for evidence. Posting, commenting, discussing, all gets eyeballs on a subject and you just never know what you might find. If evidence is found - that will help confirm or deny - as well as start a whole new wave of discussion. Since resurrecting this thread I have 2 new leads. I have no idea if they will actually bear fruit, but its 2 leads I didn't have. 

I'm not all the concerned about the missing head bolts. For a flathead - those would be absolutely necessary - for a hemi head - those extra bolts do little to nothing to contain combustion. 

Enjoy your coffee and pie. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

it is not the idea of the missing head bolts...I proposed that work around already....yes, I am 100% skeptical on the engine.....it defies too many mechanical principals BASED soled on the pictures shown and the line drawing.    I would not say this was not a proposed idea...I just do not think the idea bore fruit of a magnitude that led to a working design much less limited testing production.   I believe the head was designed based on the Thunderbolt engine for the intended use on that of flathead but the valve geometry was the fatal flaw.  This development however worked better with a cam positioned centerline to the opposed cylinders as compared to the offside flathead 6,  thus the success of the hemi V8.   I will remain open to any other evidence to support this engine, the valve train however with push rods working offside to a centered position over the cylinder....the angles are just to acute...  not here to argue with you but on your statements just a couple posts back you said there was evidence that these hemi head 6's were used in road tests and this was a most likely candidate as it would be a bolt for bolt swap to vehicle in current production...this I would agree with....if this was one of said engines being tested....but still have to wear the D. Thomas cap here...we seems to have lost our entry post numbering system again.  I would like to think this engine bore fruit even if it were say nixed by the bean counters....but few bean counters controlled R&D...

Edited February 3, 2021 by Plymouthy Adams

[greg g]

You know, when I commented on the exhaust and stuff in vehicles, I completely missed the Industrial part of the write-up.  That said, I wonder just where the engines were going to end up.  Seems like a lot of trouble to trundle a stairway up to a door on a Constallation aircraft, or power an irrigation pump or maybe the world's fastest portable arc welder.

Edited February 4, 2021 by greg g

[James_Douglas]

On 2/1/2021 at 8:42 PM, Loren said:

I just got the book "Chrysler Engines 1922-1998" by Willem L. Weertman published by SAE from Amazon.

On page 125 there's the same photo of the A-221 from 1948 (but not as good quality as the one above).

The context in the book was of the experimentation done leading up to the HEMI V8, so the author didn't have much to say about it.

The only real information was "designed by Engine Design Department under Mel Carpentier."

I suppose it was a "One off" engine and knowing the domestic manufacturers it was very likely scrapped after a time.

There are other engines in that chapter including a single cylinder DOHC HEMI.

 

Hot Rodders have put better flowing heads on inline engines in the past. I remember a Buick 8 with heads from some V8 on it.

You'd think if it worked good we'd see more of that.... 

I have the same book, great information.  I also went to Chrysler Historical about 2005 and asked if they had anything on that flat six hemi...they had nothing....

Edited February 7, 2021 by James_Douglas

[Loren]

My Dad told stories about a 1939 Buick Century 8 he got his Father to buy new.

It was a special order car that the deal fell thru. Supposedly it was an "Indy 500 Pace Car version" and had crossed checkered flags on the sides of the hood.

It had a full frame where other 39 Buicks stopped behind the wheels. A 16 cylinder Cadillac rear end and massive brakes. The engine had two carburetors and a valve cover that said "Kettering" on it instead of Buick. I mention this odd car because the head had two rocker shafts and therefore was a hemispherical combustion chamber head.

When I looked to find an "Indy 500 Pace Car" the photos were all Roadmasters and not Centurys. The Century being a smaller lighter car.

The next funny thing about it was that when they traded in....they had sellers remorse and my Dad went back to buy it back. The new Buick didn't go anything like the 39.

It was gone.

I suspect it went back to Detroit and was crushed.

That's what GM was famous for doing.

The Buick slogan "When better cars are built, Buick will build them"

Yes well it seems that was true...but they also concealed the better ones too.

[HotRodTractor]

So - I found a gentleman that has a lot of records from the engine development program. He acquired them from the estate of a former member of the development team... and apparently this guy hoarded boxes of old development information. 

At this point, he hasn't found a lot about A-221, but here is what he does know:

 

A-221 3.5" Bore x 4" Stroke 231cid (230.9)   -   This matches the description in the Chrysler Engine book as far as displacement goes.

 

A-221 EX.6  3-19/32" Bore x 4" Stroke 244ci (243.5)

 

A-221 EX.7  3-19/32" Bore x 4-5/16" Stroke 263ci (262.5)

These are all marked as 1950 development projects...

Obviously this doesn't tell us a lot about what I think most of us care about - but it is very interesting to note that the bores and strokes do not line up with existing "stock" components for any of these engines (at least not that I am aware of). It also tells us that there were at least 3 of these engines.... possibly as many as 7 different configurations that were used for testing purposes. 

The A-161 is the 1950 Chrysler c38 Hemi V8 project. 

My contact is going to keep looking and see if he finds anything of interest. 

[Francois Pelletier]

Looking at the cylinder head in the opening post, the bore spacing is not like on a flathead.

This must have been much more than a head swap.

[HotRodTractor]

5 hours ago, Francois Pelletier said:

Looking at the cylinder head in the opening post, the bore spacing is not like on a flathead.

This must have been much more than a head swap.

I do agree with this. At first I thought it might have been them simply evenly spacing the hemispheres and having some asymmetrical quench areas in each cylinder - but with the information about the displacements that has been located, its very likely that while the outside of the block looks similar, the insides might be drastically different. We might never know the actual truth of the matter.