Timing Chain

[bambamshere]

I was wonding I going to be buying a timing chain cover gasket soon because it is leaking a bit of oil. Now since I going to be doing that I thought I may as well buy a new timing chain. Maybe sprocket also. 

 

What I need to know is if a 230 timing chain and maybe sprocket will fit on my Industrial 251. Would any of you smart people no this question. 

[Merle Coggins]

Without cross checking, I would speculate that the timing chain sets are different between the 23" and 25" engines.

As for your, "maybe sprockets too" comment. They must be replaced as a set. Timing chain and sprockets. All from the same manufacturer to ensure they match.

 

Merle

[bambamshere]

Hello I was looking at this post I posted about a year ago. I was looking through the and saw that Merle had said you needed to change the timing chain and sprockets as a set. Thank You

 

I also was looking through this forum about 2 years ago and asked about what year my engine was because it had been replaced. I can't find that info I am sorry. But I think some one said it was 1953. It is a Ind 251 out of a combine. but want to make sure on the year. I have looked through the engine numbers on the site. To see if it was there but it wasn't. Numbers are TX315 139C there is some other engine numbers also but not sure if needed. 

 

I gues the only real way you can figure out what type of chain and sprockets you need. Is to take the engine apart. 

[Merle Coggins]

I would imagine that all 25" engines would use the same timing chain set, but I can't confirm that.

[bambamshere]

Not sure I have looked at some sets. Pretty expensive. I screwed up the other day and sent out for a sprockets and didn't think about chain. Think I might be out $115 dollars. kinda sucks but it was my screw up.

[Merle Coggins]

Whichever vendor you purchased the sprockets from should be able to provide a chain from the same manufacturer. 

[Matt Wilson]

Is it really critical that the chain and sprocket be from the same manufacturer?  Reason I ask is because I bought a chain and the two sprockets from Vintage Power Wagons, and the two sprockets are NOS Dodge/Chrysler parts, while I'm pretry sure the chain is a brand-new Melling unit (at least that's what they said they were selling at the time, but I can't verify from the packaging, since they shipped it to me in a clear plastic freezer bag..  It seems that they, of all people, would know if it's ok to mix them like this or not.  I just assumed that this was ok, since they sold them to me that way.  I haven't installed them yet, so I can't comment on how they are working together.  However, I can try to do something about it if this not ok.

[thisoldtruck]

It just seems odd they wouldn't offer new sprockets with a new chain though?  And what about if a guy needed timing gears instead of timing chain?  Some of the industrial versions had timing gears instead.

 

And what if I want a double roller chain?  I guess I'll be sh-- out of luck!  

 

Andy  

[kencombs]

IMO, it shouldn't matter who the maker is.  I'll bet they all build to the factory specs, diameter, pitch, etc.  I just can't see an after market maker engineering a special replacement for stock, unless it is a special improvement.  And if it was, they'd surely be advertising it as such.

 

I also suspect that there are very few makers of these parts and they sell them to several retailers.  I used to do  a lot of engine work and sourced a lot of my hard parts from a very large rebuilder.  They never had boxed sets, just individual pieces and most bore no brand markings, just plain boxes.

[bambamshere]

The engine that I have was rebuilt in 1974. I talked to the machine shop about it. They said that most of the time they don't even change the sprockets when rebuilding a motor. The chain they replace if the sprockets are still good. He also told me that there was 3 different chains for that motor life. I think there was one for 53 and earlier, 54 up to 60 and I think 60 all the way up to the 70's when the motor wasn't made anymore. Sure someone here has a better reference to that. I looked at my 251 the other day to see if by chance I could find a date code on it but there was nothing. The guy that put the motor in the truck in 2010 can't remember what year of combine it was taken out of and wasn't sure if the combine had the original motor in it. The numbers don't match anything on the internet last time I checked 2 years ago. Might check again. 

 

Back to chain not sure where you would find a matching chain and sprockets for this engine. The sprockets I got are from Melling so I am going to call them and see if they have a timing chain for the sprockets. First though I need to take everything apart and lift engine up and take the timing cover off engine. Not sure if I will find a OEM number on chain.  

[thisoldtruck]

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense that they only change the timing chain on these engines during a rebuild as the chain itself usually stretches over time from the turning force of the cam shaft.  The wear on the sprocket teeth should be minimal because of the oil tube on top pumping oil down onto everything.  Later engines done away with the oil tube and relied on an oil slinger to lube the timing chain.  

 

The only combines that used the IND251 were the Oliver and Massey Harris/Massey Ferguson in the early 1960s.  The flathead six in my WM300 Power Wagon is an IND251 and the block is painted green, like Oliver was.  I believe the Oliver 535 combine was the model number.

 

Andy  

[bambamshere]

The model # for the engine I think someone said was from 52 to 53. Not sure though. Model number is in first post above. I wish the motor was from the 60's lot easier to find parts. but part of the fun of having these vehicles is finding the parts right. Mostly everything fits these motors from different years. Just got to remember that it is 25" and not 23". 

 

Back to timing chain I would like to take it apart right now. But the temp outside is cold and not sure if I take antifreeze out to take rad out if it will crack the block

[Merle Coggins]

An empty block won’t crack. A block filled with water would/could crack. 

[bambamshere]

It's got antifreeze in it right now. No water so even if I drain the antifreeze it won't crack. Wasn't sure how all that worked.

[thisoldtruck]

Honestly, I don't think it matters if its older model engine or not.  Probably could upgrade an older engine to newer style of parts.  I think the parts from the original truck engine should work in the industrial engine just the same.  I don't think they had different blocks between them.  The bearings and valves were the biggest items that were different between the industrial and regular car/truck engines.  Some of the earlier car engines just used a draft tube for crankcase ventilation while truck/industrial engines used PCV valve type system.  The intake and exhaust manifolds were also different in a lot of cases as well as carburetors used.  I also know that some of the industrial engines used timing gears instead of timing chains.  Unless someone here knows different about the blocks themselves?

 

The only thing I could think of are that the oil passages might be different between industrial and regular truck/car blocks, but I think the industrial engines were full pressure or full flow oiling and some of the car/truck engines were not.  At least not until you get into the later production years.  But I don't know if that's true or not?  

 

Andy

Edited January 6, 2019 by thisoldtruck

[bambamshere]

I was looking at my truck the other day and was looking every where on the internet for the number on the engine. I keep calling this a IND 251 but I really don't think it is. I was looking at the number on the T137 website and notice that all the IND engines started with IND. The engine I have came out of a combine. I also could have come out of a truck at some point before being in a combine. Numbers start with a T does that mean it was in a truck first. 

 

I will be starting on the timing chain and crankshaft seal next week. This week the gas tank went in to get cleaned and sending unit is leaking so that will be repaired. 

 

Anyone no if the 3 piece hood has to come off to look at timing chain or can I just take alternator bracket off to get rad out of the way? Like slide it out on drivers side.

[bambamshere]

This is a old post but instead of starting new one. Does this look normal or does the key for the bottom gear need to be in the slot? I mean is the a slot there or only one from front of stem to where the gear is? Did the key split in 2?

[maok]

Doesn't look good at all. Pull it apart, start again.

[bambamshere]

Lol that how it came but it does run lol plus another pic. Look where the dots are this is sitting at tdc.

[maok]

I'd say that crank gear is stuck tight without being keyed, and the dots probably line up reasonable well if the crank gear was positioned correctly. Pure luck.

Edited May 11, 2019 by maok

[Dodgeb4ya]

Looks 100% correct... leave it as is...but install the key for the pulley

Edited May 11, 2019 by Dodgeb4ya

[maok]

Does the crank have two key ways? One for the gear and one for the fan belt pulley?

[bambamshere]

7 minutes ago, maok said:

Does the crank have two key ways? One for the gear and one for the fan belt pulley?

I'm not sure. Kind of question I asked.

[bambamshere]

50 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Looks 100% correct... leave it as is...but install the key for the pulley

If you look at the dot on the bigger pulley it is on top in the picture. Not sure if some one installed wrong or what because when they are together the the distributor is pointing to Number 6 cylinder. 

[Dave72dt]

I think if you were to pull the crank gear off, you'd find a woodruff style key.  That long slot has to be for the dampener and would take a square key.  As far as the dots in the right place in the last pic, post #24, turn the crank 1 complete revolution and the dots will line up.  Who knows where the dist rotor is pointing, hopefully at #6.