1940 Plymouth missing water distribution tube

[John Goldsmith]

I have been driving my 1940 Plymouth sedan since 2000, with minimal engine work due to a restoration being performed before I purchased it.  Since then it has been trouble free, including the cooling system.  No working temperature gauge due to a broken capillary tube, but I have learned that Bernbaums can fix these, so it will be done soon.  Now here's the thing - I have recently removed the water pump for general clean-up purposes and guess what I discovered - the water distribution tube is completely missing!  I guess the previous restorer must have "forgot" to replace it!  Everything looks in good condition in there, I guess because for years I've used de-mineralised water mixed with corrosion inhibiter.   My question is, HOW could I have driven this vehicle for so long without any sign of overheating or other cooling issues?  I now have a new tube on order.

[Andydodge]

Gidday Mate............lol..........not enough damn Aussie......lol........good to hear..........I've got a 1940 Oz Dodge Sedan, TJRichards body, # 475, I've had it since 1971, its been a hottrod since 1973, 318 ploy from a 1962 Chrysler Royal, disc brake etc.......I also had a Sth African built 1941 Plymouth Coupe for a few yrs but sold it a couple of yrs ago, it was to get a 230 engine but didn't before selling......now I'd suggest that as you seem to have been doing the right thing re water and inhibitor that could be a good reason why you haven't had a problem but I would think that a nice new WD Tube certainly shouldn't upset the car, just make sure to get the correct one........as far as I know all Oz assembled 1940 Mopars came with the 201 engine, the 23" long Plymouth and Dodge engine...........however as the 25" long De Soto/ Chrysler engine is listed as a possible installation from 1941 onwards I would confirm EXACTLY what you have length wise before ordering a new water tube..........as the 23" engine uses a shorter tube than the 25" engine and the 25' engine was much more commonly used here in Oz(up to 1962 in the Royals) to the extent that while IT (the 25")was the only version to actually have the "KEW" term correctly used in reference to the mopar side valve 6 here in oz a LOT of people use that damn "Kew" term to include the shorter 23" engine which is NOT correct as these engine came from the USA and the longer Kew engine came via Kew in the UK from Canada...............measure the length of the engine to be sure...........anyway if you need any info re parts, etc I have various workshop manuals, parts books etc and am happy to help............I can be contacted also by phone on 02 66 425963 or email at scaleautomobilia@hotkey.net.au..........nice to have another aussie.........regards, Andy Douglas  

[dpollo]

without a WD tube, the engine will eventually burn  valves starting with  #6 exhaust.    

[captden29]

something to be said about not having gauges. we  look at them and then create problems in our minds that don't really exist. we all know when our engine overheats without the guage. I watch my temp guage too much, but the car has never overheated in 10 years. it has come too close for comfort, so I have worked on the cooling system and improved it. did not know you could run without the water diist tube.do all flatheads have them, or is it just a Chrysler design? I never did care for that design, or for the heat riser.i would like to weld my heat riser in free flow, but I hesitate to remove the manifold as I know some bolts will break, probably the hardest ones to get to. my 54 Windsor only has warning lites for the oil and amps. I do not plan on adding gauges , I do not like the look of them hanging under the dash. put a little anti-seize on the new tube when installed. makes future removal easy. I was in Australia back in 1971. US Navy. we were so welcomed. thanks.   capt den

[greg g]

If you study the design of the tube and where it is located you can see its purpose is not really related to general operating temp but instead is designed to direct coolant upward through the slots toward the valve seat area. The previous post mentions exhaust valves which are probably the reason for the tube.  Exhaust valves are only cooled when in contact with their seat, unlike the intake valve that gets cooled by the intake flow and its contact with the seat, so seat temp is critical for exhaust valves.  For a lightly used vehicle it probably not caused much but some premature wear.  A compression test, and good interpretation of a vacuum gauge reading will verify the sealing action of the valves.  If all is in good order adding a tube should address any future concerns.  Adjusting the exhaust valves a millimeter or two loose will allow them to rest against the seat a hair longer to help keep their cool.

[DrDoctor]

   I was under the impression, perhaps mistakenly so, that the water-distribution tube was essential for the “health and well-being” of the engine. I really didn’t know one of these engines could operate for any protracted period of time without one being there. In any case, I agree with the other, most likely no harm done – yet – so I’d install one in at your earliest convenience, and then it’s another issue behind you. Thx.

[Desotodav]

Hi John and welcome aboard. I'm sure that there are others here who would like to see some pictures of your car.

Just as a matter of interest... where did you order your water distribution tube (WDT) from? I replaced one in the engine for my 53 truck recently - I obtained the WDT from Les Sonter.

There is a section on WDT's under the 'Technical' - 'Tech Tips' tab in the toolbar towards the top centre of your forum page.

 

[John Goldsmith]

Thanks all for the replies.  I had an idea valve seat cooling may be part of it, while the motor is out they'll be getting a refresh and with a new tube installed hopefully I'll get another15 years.  Desotodav, I have a new tube on order now from Bernbaums.  Last year I did a complete overhaul on my '52 Desoto Diplomat motor - used a Bernbaums tube in that and all seems fine.  Only difference is that car has the 25 inch engine, the '40 has the 23 inch.

[John Goldsmith]

My "40

[John Goldsmith]

My '51

All three vehicles have their original flathead motors.  The Diplomat motor was overhauled in 2014/2015, complete with new water tube.  The Cranbrook motor hasn't been dismantled for a long time - I assume the tube is intact!

[Andydodge]

Hey Dav..........just took the Dodge out for a run round the block and saw your De Soto's brother.........a restored 53 De Soto pickup, same as yours except in a pale grey/off white colour on NSW historic plates, haven't seen it before but think it maybe a local...........Johns cars are very tidy, a credit to him...........andyd 

[Desotodav]

Nice cars there John. Should be a big party night in Hobart tonight with the winning yaught pulling in to dock at around 2am this morning. Seems they broke the race record by about 5 hours.

Andy... I'll have to look around for that truck later in the new year. I'm thinking of dropping down your way for a short stay at the farm after I get back from California in April.

 

[Andydodge]

Dav.......need a bag boy?..................lol.........andyd.

[John Goldsmith]

Thanks for the comments, I enjoy my cars.  Yes, big time of the year in Hobart with the yachts coming in.  While I'm waiting for the new water tube to arrive, the '40 engine will be treated to a valve job, new clutch, machining of flywheel, all new expansion plugs (especially that pesky one behind the flywheel which caused the current engine removal), and repaint back to original silver.  Other areas of the motor have been performing fantastically so will be left alone for now.  I'm a great fan of the old Chrysler flatheads, great old machines!

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 hours ago, John Goldsmith said:

My '51

All three vehicles have their original flathead motors.  The Diplomat motor was overhauled in 2014/2015, complete with new water tube.  The Cranbrook motor hasn't been dismantled for a long time - I assume the tube is intact!

As an owner of a 51 and 52 Plymouth I find several interesting points on your car with the first being the '49 rear gravel shields.  I also know in your neck of the woods many things carried over from year to year and differ from stateside versions.  Guess my question is this, is that stock and do all the Oz '51's  have this trim?  The turn signal on the front, was this an add by choice of current licensing laws in your area, yellow lenses are rare for stock bezels but are out there...and is that a Roadway (sp) antenna....again, just curious, I find the differences refreshing.   I have a couple sets of the '49 gravel shields here at the house and entertained putting them on the '51 Suburban.  I like the color but something got to be done with that steering wheel..  Thanks and welcome to the forum

[JerseyHarold]

10 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

As an owner of a 51 and 52 Plymouth I find several interesting points on your car with the first being the '49 rear gravel shields.  I also know in your neck of the woods many things carried over from year to year and differ from stateside versions.  Guess my question is this, is that stock and do all the Oz '51's  have this trim?  The turn signal on the front, was this an add by choice of current licensing laws in your area, yellow lenses are rare for stock bezels but are out there...and is that a Roadway (sp) antenna....again, just curious, I find the differences refreshing.   I have a couple sets of the '49 gravel shields here at the house and entertained putting them on the '51 Suburban.  I like the color but something got to be done with that steering wheel..  Thanks and welcome to the forum

The roofline on the '51 is different than that of its USA cousins.  The A-pillar is wider and the upper rear door has a different contour, which means the rear quarter panel is different as well.  Those are fairly large stampings, and I wonder how many Australian-bodied cars were produced to make the changes cost-effective from a manufacturing standpoint.

[John Goldsmith]

Yes, JerseyHarold is correct.  The '51 - '52 Aussie body differs in its roofline and window contours.  Also, the front A pillars are not as slim as the USA ones.  Those rear gravel shields are standard on the Aussie model through to 1952, you can see them in both the Cranbrook and Diplomat photos.  The Diplomat of course is the Plymouth based car, identical to the Plymouth except for the grill and a few badges, smaller than the USA DeSotos.  In Australia the motors are also identical, despite what some people try to tell you (apart from an S added to the engine number).  The Aussie workshop manual has the exact same information for Plymouth, Dodge Kingsway and Desoto Diplomat.  The Canadian 25 inch motor is used.  The front turn signal lights (we call them indicators) are after-market add ons. The law demands we have them, and they are supposed to be amber, however some people incorporate the rear ones into their tail lights, resulting in a red colour.  I don't know what type the antenna is, but it's quite old.  Gosh you must have good eye sight to have examined the steering wheel!

[likaleica]

Some very nice cars pictured here guys - never knew so many are in OZ!  And Happy New Year from England to everyone on here.  Worries about breaking studs when removing exhaust manifolds are well founded. This happened on my 39 Plymouth Sedan, in spite of them being soaked for weeks previously in Freeway releasing fluid (similar to Plus Gas.)  I wondered afterwards if some gentle heat from a blowtorch might have helped avoid this.  Having to drill them out is no fun at all - particularly the one nearest the firewall!

Interested in the comment about isolating the upriser flap between the exhaust manifold and the inlet manifold/carburettor. I've sourced a new exhaust manifold to replace my broken one and I really don't want to bother with the flap. For a start the bimetal spring is broken so it won't open and close correctly, and the spindle is worn so there would be exhaust/inlet leaks. My Carter B&B carb has a manual choke anyway, and the car is not used in very cold weather. Does anyone have any views on how I should proceed? Should I weld the flap "open" (allowing maximum flow out of the exhaust and minimal flow to the inlet manifold - see photo attached) or remove the flap completely, weld up the spindle holes and blank off the entire flange between the exhaust and inlet manifolds with a thick steel plate? If I did the latter, should I cut a small slot in the blank plate to allow a little heat flow up into the inlet (as happens when the flap is in the aforementioned "open" position)

As for the WD tube issue, I bought one from Andy Bernbaum before I realised that my car has the shorter 23" engine (thanks to Andydodge for alerting me to this fact!!)  Does anyone know how long the WD tube for the 23" block should be (or the 25" for that matter)?  I don't want to strip the water pump out before confirming I have the right tube!  I am fearing that the studs will break when I try to remove the water pump - is this as common as the exhaust studs breaking? I've read that the WD tube is often disintegrated in the block - how easy is it to remove the debris and is it usually an "engine out/strip down" scenario? Sorry to ask so many questions but there is little knowledge of these cars here in the UK and this forum has made my continued ownership of my Plymouth possible! Thanks to all who read this.

[Ranger]

Just a thought on the missing water distribution tube. Make sure it's not broken off down inside before you insert the new one. Might have broken off on removal by the precious owner and he just said screw it. You need it for valve cooling as previously mentioned. If the motor is out you should be able to clear it if needed. Motor in the car is a different story. They sometimes come out in pieces. 

On the heat riser issue above. If only used in warm weather you can get by without it but in colder weather you need it for sure. It's there for a reason and replacement kits are available. If you switch to headers and duel  exhaust a plate is recommended to circulate hot water from the engine under to intake manifold.

Look up AoK.

and what is vegemite anyway?

[greg g]

I have been running mine with the flap welded in the position that allows the exhaust flow the direct way out. When the manifolds were reassembled I fashioned a blocker plate out of thin stainless steel sheet, placed the new gasket between the exhaust and the blocker plate.  Used flat head bolts counter sunk into the blocker plate.  Then ground them flush as possible.  My manifolds are no longer bolted together.I put the nuts and lock washers on the bottom of the exhaust manifold.  30,000 miles with no issues.  As a slight consesion to the manifold warming gods, I have tie wrapped my heater return hose to the side of the intake.  This obviously only works when the heater is in use most likely in cooler weather...I have driven in sub freezing temperatures but in those conditions I do allow for a slightly longer warm up period before venturing in traffic. Works sufficient to my needs.  As a daily driver in prolonged cold conditions, I might be forced to reconsider, but I don't use it that way.

Edited January 2, 2017 by greg g

[John Goldsmith]

Thank you Ranger.  The motor is out of the car and I've had a good look in there with a torch (flashlight?) and it appears completely empty, so I think I'm OK.  In fact the whole cavity looks pretty good with no crud or bits of broken tube.

Vegemite?  An Australian dark brown coloured spread for toast or sandwiches, similar to English Marmite but with its own distinctive flavour.  Australians are born and bred on it and generally love it.  However, Americans have been known to vomit on their first tasting of it!  Definitely an acquired taste.

[Ricky Luke]

Gday John, happy new year and welcome to the forum.

Vegemite.... For those who have never tried it, a word of advice. If offered, spread it VERY thin over heavily buttered toast and have coffee or tea next to you. It's pretty salty.

Rick 

[Andydodge]

Ricky........you asked about production numbers of Oz cars B4 1949.........I have a printout from 1940 to 1952 that I seem to recollect that B Watson on this forum had used in a reply however I can't be sure now whether it was him.......other problem is that the figues for 1949-52 don't seem to correspond with those that Gavin Farmer uses in his book so I am a little unsure now whats what...........lol..........what model number is your car?..........a 1940 Chrysler Royal C???..........andyd