Front Coil Springs

[rb1949]

Debating front coil spring replacement. Do I know anything about springs? NO! Lots of reading on the subject, and that the Aerostar springs are good for old Mopar. And multiple results as to the resulting car height they provide.The spring is shorter than original, but gives same height? Cars mentioned are Dodge, Plymouth and DeSoto. Mine is '49 Chrysler. So far lots of stuff about this '49 are different from other Mopars. So it makes me want to question springs. Stock 250 engine. Any wisdom from the been there - done that experience would be appreciated. Prices for the CC850 spring seem reasonable. Installing them is another story. Thanks.

[suntennis]

I like the saying "if it is not broke, don't fix it" . Unless one side is lower than the other or one spring is broke, why replace the springs?

[rb1949]

Questions usually have a reason, which wasn't mentioned. One side is lower. Evaluating the reason. Aerostar is mentioned a lot, but not understanding how a shorter spring would work. And if Chrysler is different from other Mopar. Are there specs about what was original? Big difference in the price of stock springs. The rookie is seeking all the advice he can get.

[DJ194950]

Do not know any of the specs but my 1950 Mopar parts books show that the Chrysler front spring are different for v-8 v/s 6 cyl. and all are different from the others brands Mopar.

However my interchange book says that most model ( not 8 pass./limo) Chrysler v-8 springs  do interchange with v-8 springs of dodge and  desoto of 49- 54 most. So they fit but spring rates??

I have read Eaton spring co. knows the specs and can and will help with a phone call. I have No personal experience however.

DJ

[Gnome]

17 hours ago, rb1949 said:

Questions usually have a reason, which wasn't mentioned. One side is lower. Evaluating the reason. Aerostar is mentioned a lot, but not understanding how a shorter spring would work. 

a shorter spring has more strength than a longer spring. i bought the cc850 springs but yet to put them on, most posts mention cutting one coil off to keep the front end from going nose up in the air. also the design of it (stiffness) will make it ride better. I also think its a variable rate spring.  HTH I know others will share their experiences. 

[Gnome]

hope this helps 

Edited December 15, 2016 by Gnome

[rb1949]

Thanks. Good video, with a guy from Eaton. Sub-zero is not the season to be thinking about doing any actual work. But good to research and plan. I doubt just a shock would cause the leaning. Discussions on the Ford coil in a Mopar vary immensely. "too high". "too low". "rides stiff". "perfect ride". This is not a project you want to repeat more than once. Stock replacements are always an option. Pay a little more, to get what you think is right the first time. True, different springs for even the same model .... 2 dr, 4 dr, V8, 6, etc.

Eaton does show a different part # for '49 Dodge, Plymouth or Chrysler. Yet Aerostar is being poked into all Mopar? Is it worth a $50 gamble, not to mention the work.Some use a compressor, others say it can be done without.Will check if local does this work, and price.Sometimes avoiding the hassle is a better choice. I'll be back.

[Dartgame]

I did the aerostar swap on my 52 plymouth. Obviously not the same car. I replaced the rear leaf springs at the same time. Car sits dead level maybe an inch higher than before the swap. The front springs are amazingly easy to swap out. Maybe an hour a side depending on your skill. I had never swapped coil springs before either ! I have tons of experience with the 60/70's torsion bar front ends on mopars. Fear not !

Doing one side at a time, I supported the car frame with a jack stand and then put a  floor jack under the lower control arm, raise it and support the weight of the car with the jack. Remove the shock, and loosen the lower bolt on the upright, remove the lower bolt and then lower the control arm using the jack, pull out the old spring, note and keep the upright rubber seals in their original orientation for re-assembly. Reverse process with new spring - torque fasteners to specs. Done.

I have heard that the Desotos and chryslers used a deeper pocket than dodges and plymouths  in the lower control arm which may effect the stock spring length. The aerostar springs are progressive rate and do not compress as much as the stockers so yes they are shorter. But for 40 or 50$ in the springs I'd give it a try. It might lower the front end a little - maybe an inch ? given the control arm pocket difference. The swap made a huge improvement in the ride and handling. You might also be able to install a spring cushion in the lower arm which would take up some of the difference.

[Dave72dt]

Shocks will not cause leaning.  All they do is control the compression and rebound of the spring.

[Bmartin]

I have the Aerostars in the front of my 4 and am pretty happy with the ride quality.  Definitely stiffer, but I also have the relocated shocks with the Monroes - which are significantly stiffer than stock.  I cut a coil or so since I am trying to stay lower.  I would guess that they lowered my car an inch without cutting.  My bet is they raise your front end since your springs are original and have sagged over time. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

bmartin is correct...while you think you have raised the front end 1" in reality you may have only gained back 1" of the overall sag due to fatigue.  While the book shows how to measure it does not give specs on height.  It also goes into correction of ride height by spring color/numbering but again does not state the ride height.  Neither does my period Motor manual.  If anyone has the correct ride height for these models it would be good to post as a reference line for gains or improvements.  Many folks are only concerned about a level ride, slight butt high rake, andd some build the taildragger and others like to slam them to the ground.  

[Plymouthy Adams]

as a follow up......I called a very well known and respected spring company and asked what the stock ride height is for the 48 Plymouth.  He informed me that those specs are not known and that the springs they sell are based ONLY on the original blueprint and specs of the springs uninstalled and their +/- rates are derived from that information based on the spring data compared to stock specifications and that is how they arrive at the place/level a builder wants to be in respect to stock ride....again..he could not quote the stock ride height, back to square one and hopefully someone here with an old service bulletin may be able to shed some additional information on the subject.  This very fact alone explains how many may arrive at different levels of +/- as the known value of their stock spring due to age and fatigue cannot be measured and compared to 'when new' ride height.  What one person used to gain or lose in respect to height would probably be close to that of another user but cannot be assured across the board.

[DrDoctor]

   For coil springs, I’ve had excellent luck with Eaton Spring Works. They’ll ask questions about ride height, compressed and uncompressed lengths, diameter of coil, wire size, etc, after which they’ll be able to provide you a set of coil springs that will fit perfect, provide a great ride, and won’t break your bank account (typically just over $100.^­00). Delivery is usually within a few days, and best of all, if for some reason they don’t work as you like, they’ll exchange them for just shipping charges, and any difference in price should the subsequent set of springs cost more than the first set received by you. As for installation, it’s best to use an internal spring compressor. An external one, usually used for McPherson Struts, won’t work well, as the frame and A-arms are in the way. You can use the old tried-and-true floor-jack method, but it is slips, the spring will come out with unbelievable force, providing you with some exciting and rapid foot-work to avoid potential serious injury. An internal spring compressor doesn’t cost much (typically quite abit less than $100.^­00), and security of a safer project is well worth that expense. Also, it’s much less expensive than a trip to your local hospital’s ER – of this I know – trust me.  Thx.

[Plymouthy Adams]

call them and ask stock ride height of a 1948 Plymouth...am sure you may be surprised at the very answer you get...see post 12 above as a refresher...

[DrDoctor]

   If you need/want the ride height of the vehicle, just check the service manual, it’s in there, along with the steps to adjust it within a limited constraint. If the adjustment to the static vehicle height is required, they recommend different springs coded for specific height alterations. If it were me - I’d remove your springs (safely!!!), and then call Eaton Spring Works and go over what you’ve got, what you want (if different than what you’ve got) and let them (the experts) provide you with what you want/need. In all of the occasions I’ve used that company, not once have I had a problem, nor a complaint. Again, a voice of experience. Thx.

[Plymouthy Adams]

13 minutes ago, The Dr's In said:

   If you need/want the ride height of the vehicle, just check the service manual, it’s in there, along with the steps to adjust it within a limited constraint. If the adjustment to the static vehicle height is required, they recommend different springs coded for specific height alterations. If it were me - I’d remove your springs (safely!!!), and then call Eaton Spring Works and go over what you’ve got, what you want (if different than what you’ve got) and let them (the experts) provide you with what you want/need. In all of the occasions I’ve used that company, not once have I had a problem, nor a complaint. Again, a voice of experience. Thx.

page and paragraph or the actual data would be quite nice as no one else seems to have this data nor my original print service manual..nor my period correct motors manual nor Eaton springs themselves could give me this information when I called and talked to the tech rep today around noon time..

Edited December 16, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams

[rb1949]

Keep it up, confidence is emerging. Slowly. There's still a 5 month weather delay. Multiple choices for stock springs are falling within an equal price range. Made for the vehicle, I would see no reason to take measurements. There are no alterations/modifications to consider. But do shop for Aerostar, lots of price differences for the same item. Reasonable that includes shipping sounds logical. They weigh 35 lbs. Would not be wise to have to pay return shipping, for any of them. I presume the ends of Ford spring match Mopar so they fit/stay in place. Is the rubber seal mentioned usually OK to re-use?

[Plymouthy Adams]

If the spring cushion is not damaged and compressed till the spring is poking trough the other side and both side compressed equally..yes you can reuse these items..

[DrDoctor]

   For chapter and verse re: ride height – Plymouth Service Manual for Models P-15, P-17, P-18, P-19, P-20, P-22, P-23, P-24, P-25, 1946-1954, Section 1, “Front Suspension System”, Part 3, “Front Wheel Alignment Corrections”, Page 10, specifically the two sub-parts “Measuring Front Spring Height”, and “Correcting Front Spring Height”, in the second column, and continues onto the first column of the following page. I believe that this is addressed adequately, and thus doesn’t warrant redundant repetition here. Again, my recommendation to contact Eaton Spring Works for their expert assistance. Good luck, regards. Thx.

[Plymouthy Adams]

as is often the case the communications are muddled...you are speaking entirely of a procedure of which there is no argument but yet you argue the point I was making and stated yes there is a set height in inches...read where I spoke of inches...I further stated that Eaton whom you said could quote this also could not quote a ride height in inches either. Changing springs and comparing ride height of the chassis is to pavement in inches and most folks will see different loss/gains in ride height due to the wear and tear of their components compared to someone else..the very point I was making that one will have one result with the same spring but yet person B will have yet another experience....

this gets even more muddled when folks also try to attain a certain level in the front without regard to the sag and wear in the rear spring and shackle department..

Edited December 17, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams

[Dodgeb4ya]

I have never seen in any factory MoPar bulletin/factory shop manual or after market spring supplier catalog that states the height/ wire diameter and spring rate for any 1941-54 Mopar car springs. I have been looking over the years for this specific info .

No supplier has instilled in me confidence that they can supply me the correct modern day replacement coil springs after several people and customers I know have purchased springs that were either too harsh or ride height was wrong.

I have a pile of used springs out of several old 1946-52 MoPar cars mostly all 1946-52 Chrysler's. They are of no value for height measurements because of old age sag!

Most of my cars are the big and heavy low production "8" cylinder Chryslers.... even tougher to find anyone who knows what a model C49-N or K is... for Gods sake!

 

[DrDoctor]

   In med school, one of the first things we were told was to answer questions as presented, not as we’d like them to be presented. Given that – I never said Eaton Spring Works could give specifics as to ride height. They’ll only want to know if the ride height of the vehicle is presently what the owner wants, or if he/she wants it lower/higher. Then they’ll inquire as to the compressed height of the spring, and the relaxed length of it, too. They’ll also ask the diameter of the spring, and the diameter of the spring wire. They also take into consideration the vehicle specifics, ie: optional equipment, as well as age, and the resultant effects each will have on the existing springs. Then they can make educated recommendations as to what the customer needs/wants. And yes, they deal in inches, since they’re located in the U.S. For such a straight forward task, this is taking on a much more complicated process than I feel is necessary.

[rb1949]

The Moog CC850 Aerostar coil:

Dimensions:
Diameter: 4.07"
Wire Diameter: 0.735"
Free Height: 11.65"
Load Height: 10"

I think the discussion has lots of good points. If springs are made for your vehicle, why bother with all these measurements.

[Plymouthy Adams]

4 hours ago, The Dr's In said:

   In med school, one of the first things we were told was to answer questions as presented, not as we’d like them to be presented. Given that – I never said Eaton Spring Works could give specifics as to ride height. They’ll only want to know if the ride height of the vehicle is presently what the owner wants, or if he/she wants it lower/higher. Then they’ll inquire as to the compressed height of the spring, and the relaxed length of it, too. They’ll also ask the diameter of the spring, and the diameter of the spring wire. They also take into consideration the vehicle specifics, ie: optional equipment, as well as age, and the resultant effects each will have on the existing springs. Then they can make educated recommendations as to what the customer needs/wants. And yes, they deal in inches, since they’re located in the U.S. For such a straight forward task, this is taking on a much more complicated process than I feel is necessary.

and I love the fact that you state...if this does not work..just ship them back and try something else....may work for you but not make others very happy given the very work involved in the process of trial and error...but again you miss the very point of the conversation and analysis...while a spring rate can be judged by its characteristics...the owner of each cars is dealing with sag over time and wishes his car to set higher by 1 inch or lower by one inch FROM HIS GIVEN STANCE NOW....the car at present is not at stock ride height so any spring he orders now over what he has measured or gauged by his eye will not be reflective with the rate of the new spring...you still not viewing the selection aspect as many report their desire to change height....and this was to let them know that what they have now cannot be used to correctly and accurately set their new ride height as there is not a comparable set of dimensions in inches to make that possible...it is not the rate of the spring or the dimension of the spring itself that is the clinker..it is how folks gauge what they have now as to what they want to be at and throw in the unknown stock height.  so if he wants 1 inch lower than his already sagging 1 1/2 ride now he would need to specify a 2.5 inch drop...failure to add the two is the faulty math and it is guessing on all accounts...and Eaton will not ask you spring compression or stiffness or cross section as they already have all that engineering data and know that the average owner has not a clue the original specs and characteristics of your spring...it is not not going to happen in your imaginary world..

Edited December 17, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams

[st63]

Has anyone used the coil springs Kanter advertises as being the appropriate Mopar application?  My '50 P-20 needs new front springs, and these are what I'm considering.

 https://www.kanter.com/content/Plymouth/kanter_Plymouth_1950_Coil_Springs_139886.html