sp15cspecial Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Has anybody got a1933 dodge cutaway diagram of a freewheeling gearbox or a exploded diagram my manual only shows normal box. I have two spare boxes in parts looking to see if ive got everything as i want to build up a box before i take out of car cheers Gareth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 On the Plymouth side, the '28-'33 Master Parts List has cut-away views of the freewheeling transmission with call outs for all the bits and pieces. I have to assume the Dodge parts book would have that too. Likewise, there is are cut-away illustrations of the transmission in the '33 Plymouth Instruction Book (the one what came with the car) and I have to assume the Dodge would be the same. I haven't checked the Dodge side, but both of the above publications are available as reprints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp15cspecial Posted May 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 Thanks Tod the book i have is for a comercial car where could i find thease books as im in Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution TodFitch Posted May 31, 2016 Solution Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 I imagine that places like Faxon Auto Literature would carry the reprints. In the meantime, here is a scan from the '33 DeLuxe Plymouth Instruction Book as I am guessing that the Dodge and Plymouth transmissions are very similar (might even be identical). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp15cspecial Posted May 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Thanks Tod thats perfect just what i needed Cheers Gareth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted December 18, 2020 Report Share Posted December 18, 2020 TodFitch, I know this thread is 4 years old, but do you know of any source to get parts for the freewheeling box (vacuum lines going into it). Mostly gaskets and the rubber boot in the rear where the linkage attaches. Guessing not. I'd like to keep mine working but plan to rebuild the motor (201) and would like to refresh the boots, rubber parts as much as I can while everything is on the garage floor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 There are no vacuum lines to the freewheeling transmission itself. The vacuum lines, if they still exist on the car, go from the intake manifold to a spool valve on the top of the automatic clutch vacuum servo located on the driver side of the engine. I do not know of a supplier of the vacuum lines and they no longer exist on my car. From the photos, the first part of the line from the tab below the carburetor to just above the automatic clutch is metal. I am guessing 3/8 or 1/2 in diameter. From there a short piece of hose connects to the vacuum clutch. I believe that Steele Rubber has a reproduction rubber boot for where the actuating rod comes out of the vacuum clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 19, 2020 Report Share Posted December 19, 2020 (edited) I get why SAAB and other two stroke engines used free wheeling. Basically to allow the engine to drop to idle while desending long hills in order to keep bearings from burning up from high rpm with no lubrication while the throttle was closed but why would you want a 3000 pound car with inch wide brakes shoes to not have compression braking on long downhills and around town in traffic. Don't see any advantage at all for running a 4 stroke with an free wheel system. Edited December 19, 2020 by greg g 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 1 hour ago, greg g said: I get why SAAB and other two stroke engines used free wheeling. Basically to allow the engine to drop to idle while desending long hills in order to keep bearings from burning up from high rpm with no lubrication while the throttle was closed but why would you want a 3000 pound car with inch wide brakes shoes to not have compression braking on long downhills and around town in traffic. Don't see any advantage at all for running a 4 stroke with an free wheel system. Not 3,000 pounds, only 2,645 lbs for the heaviest body style in 1933. But still, I get your point. From one bit of 1933 sales literature: Quote . . . Today those people would not drive a car without Hydraulic Brakes. They find a car without Free Wheeling awkward to handle. They feel unsafe in anything but a Safety-steel body. . . And from another: Quote It’s truly DeLUXE with Automatic Clutch . . . and Free Wheeling Another feature Plymouth first brought to the low price field. Free Wheeling is standard equipment on the De Luxe Plymouth. It enables you to shift gears without using the clutch when the car is moving. Plymouth Free Wheeling is of the most advanced type —cam and roller— preferred by most manufacturers for its simplicity and reliableness. A delight to passenger and driver. While GM products started getting synchromesh around 1930 starting, I think, with Cadillac, Chrysler was slow to adopt it. The first Plymouth so equipped was in 1935. For 1933 and 34 they tried to rely on the automatic clutch and free wheeling to make shifting as easy as possible. Remember, the high volume competition had mechanical brakes which had the unfortunate tendency to need fairly frequent adjustment to keep the braking action of all wheels the same. So Plymouth brakes were enough better that they could rely on engine braking less. That said, the 1933 DeLuxe Plymouth Six Instruction Book (owner’s manual) does say: Quote In some instances the driver of the car may not wish to use the Free Wheeling feature when negotiating long hills or mountainous country. In order to lock out Free Wheeling at any speed, press the foot accelerator until the engine is driving the car, depress the clutch pedal and pull the control button “out” quickly to the limit of travel. For what is it worth, I always have my free wheeling control in the locked out position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted December 20, 2020 Report Share Posted December 20, 2020 Gotta remember the audience of the times. many of them may very well have been used to a horse and buggy, no compression braking there, so they were used to using brakes to control descent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted October 16, 2023 Report Share Posted October 16, 2023 TodFitch, on another post, you recommended: The easy way to permanently lock out the freewheeling is to loosen the clamp screw on the cable coming from the dash. Then move the dash knob all the way in, move the freewheeling lockout lever on the transmission to the locked out position, and finally tightening the clamp on the control lever. As a double check, is the control lever in the locked out position if it is as far forward as possible or as far rearward? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Mopar-Boy said: TodFitch, on another post, you recommended: The easy way to permanently lock out the freewheeling is to loosen the clamp screw on the cable coming from the dash. Then move the dash knob all the way in, move the freewheeling lockout lever on the transmission to the locked out position, and finally tightening the clamp on the control lever. As a double check, is the control lever in the locked out position if it is as far forward as possible or as far rearward? Thanks! In the as delivered to the original owner configuration, the three positions of the knob are: All the way in: Both freewheeling and automatic clutch active. Middle position: Freewheeling active but automatic clutch locked out. All the way out: Both Freewheeling and automatic clutch locked out. Again, everything locked out has the dash knob as far out as it will go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 one more question: IF I lock out the FW by locking out the cable, AND I properly block the vacuum line from the intake manifold, is there any reason NOT to remove the vacuum servo entirely? And are there folks looking for one (should I list it on ebay or anything?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 Yes, if you block out the vacuum line you can remove the automatic clutch entirely. You don't need to lock out the freewheeling if you do this as that is a totally different bit of mechanical equipment. They just happen to work off the same knob on the dash. There are probably people looking for an automatic clutch assembly. They are fairly rare because they were troublesome and many (most?) were removed and thrown away. If you are going for judging it may make a few points difference if you have one on there or not. Selling on eBay would probably work but placing ads in the marque specific club magazines would also be an option. My impression is that the Plymouth Owners Club's magazine's classified ad section is fairly effective and I suspect that the Dodge Brothers Club and/or the WPC club publications would also be good. There were some variations on design between the couple of years the automatic clutch was offered so please let your buyer know what it came off so they can decide if it is what they are looking for. If you do decide to remove yours and sell it, do your buyer a favor and also get them the pivot stud bolted into the block that the automatic clutch mounts on: There are different length ones depending on the width of the engine with the Dodge/Plymouth being different than Chrysler (and maybe DeSoto). A machinist could make a new one for them but it would be nice if they just got it with the unit. The hard line for vacuum from the manifold and the control cable and tube that runs from the transmission to the automatic clutch should also be included in your sale. Basically give them all the little extra bits that are actually needed to install the unit. One pro for removing the automatic clutch is that it makes seeing the ignition timing mark on the flywheel a lot easier to see. In 1934 they moved the timing mark to the front crank pulley so that issue does not apply to a potential buyer of an automatic clutch for a 1934 model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 GREAT pointers. Thanks again. also, had no idea that the timing marks would be on the flywheel. I'm more at home w 60s era cars. This is my first prohibition era project. I have stuck exclusively to mopars however! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 as I continue working on my DP6 and review this forum, I see recommendations for MT90 fluid for the transmission. Does anyone know the fluid capacity for the freewheeling gear box? That way I can get it all at once. At the market price I definitely don't want to buy too much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniper Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 My service manual usually has that kind of information. I don't have a 1933 Dodge manual so I can't help directly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Mopar-Boy said: as I continue working on my DP6 and review this forum, I see recommendations for MT90 fluid for the transmission. Does anyone know the fluid capacity for the freewheeling gear box? That way I can get it all at once. At the market price I definitely don't want to buy too much! I assume the recommendations for your '33 Dodge with freewheeling is the same as for my '33 Plymouth with freewheeling. The lubrication chart says the capacity of the transmission is 2 3/4 pints or 1.3 liters. For summer the 1933 Plymouth Deluxe 6 Instruction Book calls for “Free wheeling lubricant No. 110”. For winter it calls for “Free wheeling lubricant No 90”. I have never found a description of what made “free wheeling lubricant” different from other gear lubricants but the numbers seem to match that of other gear lubricants. Since there are no synchronizers or other yellow metal parts in the transmission (or rear end), pretty much any gear lubricant is compatible with the materials. The question is what weight to use. From personal experience, running SAE 90 will result in shifting issues, at least when driving in spring, summer and fall conditions. The gears just keep spinning too much making it difficult to shift without grinding. And I have not been able to find SAE 110 gear lubricant. But my local hardware and automotive stores usually have some heavier gear lubricants. I have been running StaLube SAE 140 multipurpose gear lubricant in my rear end and transmission for years with no issues. I am pretty sure the last batch I bought was from a hardware store rather than an auto supply store. I am curious where you saw a recommendation for MT90 fluid for the transmission. That appears to be a 75W90 weight which I think will be way to light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mopar-Boy Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 it was on this site, not 1933 specific but there were multiple recommendations for redline MTL90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Mopar-Boy said: it was on this site, not 1933 specific but there were multiple recommendations for redline MTL90 Ahh. I can believe that a 1935 and up transmissions that have synchronizers could probably use that. The 1933 & 34 transmissions have sliding dog clutches with no synchronization so you have to double clutch them and it is way easier to do that if the gear lubricant provides a bit more drag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Buchanan Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, TodFitch said: Ahh. I can believe that a 1935 and up transmissions that have synchronizers could probably use that. The 1933 & 34 transmissions have sliding dog clutches with no synchronization so you have to double clutch them and it is way easier to do that if the gear lubricant provides a bit more drag. The reason the Redline oils such at MT90 and MTF work so well is because they provide MORE drag than the modern GL oils. Sounds like Redline might be an excellent choice in the very old transmissions. It sure cured the crunchies in my P15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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