Paint and bodywork restoration

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Guy's;

I am afraid I inadvertently hijacked the thread Dolly Dodge started.

Sorry about that Dolly.

I thought maybe I should start a thread specifically to share body prep and painting ideas. I am learning (hopefully) as I go and am certain that there are others here who are in the same boat as me.....you know need to put a finish of some sort on our trucks.......but can't afford a big buck paint job.

Also this might be a good place to share ideas about the level of finish and techniques & equipment required to get there.

Jeff

[RobRobitaille]

Take your time you can almost always wet sand and polish out the imperfections. If you use a base coat clear coat. The base coat is easy to spray but the clear is a bit tricky to get it on heavy enough to get the shine your looking for without heavy edges. Practice on something like your shop wall or an old steel cabinet. If you make a mistake you cant polish out you only need to base coat the area you sanded and re clear that panel. Good Luck

Edited October 21, 2012 by RobRobitaille

[Jeff Balazs]

One of the ideas I have been considering is using a primer that is tinted the same color as the topcoat. In my case this will most likely be a light tan color.

What are the pros and cons of this? I can keep it out of the weather until it has a final topcoat.

I am taking all the body parts down to bare metal. There is some filler work to do which I think will be fine to do on the bare metal. I suppose once this has all been primered there will be another pass of filler to take care of some imperfections that were missed in the first pass. Then more primer and prep for topcoat.

I am planning on leaving some of the old dents and scrapes but it is my intention to do a good enough job on this to protect against future deterioration. I would be perfectly happy if this turns out looking like an old work truck.......cause after all that is what it is.

Thanks, Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

another thing you will have to consider..are you planning on using the vehicle as you do the work...lots of folks do..some however will flat refuse..reason is the type primer you use once the metal is prepped as for sealing out moisture...in your opening thread you mentioned cost..have you even priced the tintable primers compared to the base shades offered...just another area where the cost will grow by leaps and bounds even with the DIY approach.

work your truck by sections/panels...doors, cab, firewall, fenders, bed sides etc..all can be broken into single items with an abundance of cut lines..single items will show your progress at a steady pace compared to the overall strip and prep of the entire vehicle.

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Tim;

I am not planning on using the truck until all the work is done. My one concern with this is that I won't be able to do all the painting at one time. With my work schedule as it is I can only work on this stuff a day here and there. So this process of priming and painting may be spread out over a period of a few months. I am not certain if this has any bearing on material selection?

I did get a price of $160/gal from my local supplier for the tinted primer. This included hardener and reducer. I believe this product is made by Valspar but I am not sure.

Jeff

[RobRobitaille]

Hi Tim;

I am not planning on using the truck until all the work is done. My one concern with this is that I won't be able to do all the painting at one time. With my work schedule as it is I can only work on this stuff a day here and there. So this process of priming and painting may be spread out over a period of a few months. I am not certain if this has any bearing on material selection?

I did get a price of $160/gal from my local supplier for the tinted primer. This included hardener and reducer. I believe this product is made by Valspar but I am not sure.

Jeff

One piece at a time is fine. If you use a base clear application the base coat can be mixed at your paint supply store already reduced ready to spray no mixing required as long as you buy one batch large enough to do the whole job and mix it well before every time you use some the color should match perfectly on every panel. It will keep in the can mixed for years. The clear on the other hand once the harder is added use it and get it out of your gun because it hardens chemically and will harden even in the gun or can. As for the primer I would use an air dry one just reduce and spray. No hardener required. Then you can save the portion you didn't use in a baby food jar for the next panel. I have only used tinted primer at work for factory paint jobs on the assembly line but $160 per gallon seems like a lot for primer. Good luck

This guy has good advice

Edited October 21, 2012 by RobRobitaille

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Rob;

I don't think I want to mess with a clear coat type paint job. I am in SoCal so formulation may be different and cost's are definitely higher.

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

The heart of any paint job, be it get it covered or high end, high dollar is the work put into the prep. The huge percentage of that is labor and the amount of time, effort and attention to detail you put in is what makes the difference. High dollar paint and high dollar equipment won't make an inadequately prepped surface look great. Low dollar paint on a well prepared surface will look good.

A buff colored primer should work well for your tan color top coat and is a common color available from a number of companies. I use a 2k primer for blocking, dry sanding up to 400 and then laying another coat of 2k on top if I need to let the panel set while prepping other panels. When ready to apply color, I can then go back and wet sand at 400 and then 600, depending on the color, all the panels I have ready or have room to spray, clean them up and spray.

You may want to look at Dupli-color's line of ready to spray lacquer based paints. I believe it's cleared for use in CA. Rustoleum or Valspar or any of the economy enamels can be used and would recommend spraying them although they can be rolled on. Drying time increases dramatically doing it that way. I've sprayed Rustoleum, thinned with their recommended reducers and found the dry time longer than the BC/CC that I normally use, but not objectionable and much less than brushing or rolling it, plus it's much smoother and evenly applied. Hardeners will help it dry and offer some UV protection. Leaving the hardeners out will help it fade out a bit over time and may give you that old work truck look in a couple years. Just don't paint it red if you do that. It progressively turns to pink.

Do paint the back of the cab and the front of the box whether or not you take out the dings and dents.

Without knowing what you have for equipment or the materials you intend to use or are allowed to use, it's hard to offer much more specific information than that. Time to start making decisions. Figure out what paint you want to use and work backwards from there, prepping the panels with the products that are compatible with the top coat. P-sheets for the paint will tell you what you need for primers , how fine you need to sand it, paint gun tip size, air pressure, dry times, etc. Get the P sheets for the primer, too. Even Rustoleum comes with directions for usage...for a reason.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Dave72dt

[JBNeal]

I've been teaching myself how to paint by reading as much as I can, asking a few tactfully worded questions to guys in the body shop field, then practicing techniques on different assemblies (home LPG tank, lawn tractor parts, engine compartment parts, etc.). DO choose materials carefully, as mixing & matching paint systems / manufacturers can produce unsatisfactory results. If you want to 'hurry up & finish', the end result will show this lack of patience. But most of all, inadequate prep work will undermine any work done with the presence of fisheyes, blistering, crazing, delamination...many things can go wrong if not enough attention is paid to detail. And a decent paint job can be had if good materials are chosen and prep work & application are done per manufacturers' instructions.

I restored Dad's '67 Farmall 1206 using CaseIH primer/paint over Rust-Cure, sanding smooth rough spots between coats applied with a non-HVLP Tractor Supply paint gun. The only issue has been some chipping of the paint that I think may have been caused by using too much hardener. During the process of painting that tractor, I found out there was a definite difference between body shop supply store lacquer thinner & cheaper Lowe's lacquer thinner (the cheap stuff made the expensive paint look like carp when reduced, but the cheap stuff cleaned the paint gun just fine). The finish is not show-car glossy, but I've been told it looks as good as tractors were painted back in the 60s, and the paint color/condition has held up well in the past 8+ yrs.

Since I did that tractor, I've learned about painting with a foam brush, then a foam roller. From what I've found, painting castings with a foam brush does much better than spray painting, as the foam brush can be dabbed into the casting surface, eliminating shadowing that can occur when using a spray gun. Foam brush / roller painting is cheaper as less paint is needed to get decent coverage, but it takes more time than spray painting. I plan on doing sheet metal with a foam roller with a possible sprayed top coat for a smoother finish...but if the roller application works well, I may skip the paint gun altogether

[HanksB3B]

This site has a lot of useful information and a lot of excellent products at very competitive pricing.

http://www.tcpglobal.com/

Their learning center is full of books and Videos

http://www.tcpglobal.com/learningcenter/

Hank

Edited October 22, 2012 by HanksB3B

[HanksB3B]

I wonder if anyone here on the P15-D24 considers their Pilothouse finished. Even though most people would look at my truck as complete, my after the fact "To-Do" list has more items than I want to think about.

Body work and paint takes a long time. I painted my truck the first time in 1980-81 by myself (back in the day when I had more time than money and was a whole lot younger)

I thought it looked great (and that's really all that matters), but after 20 years of neglect my truck's Acrylic Enamel finish looked pretty tired.

I knew someday I wanted to fix-up my truck and have one of those California Hot Rod show quality paint jobs, but that's just me. I had been saving for a long time to do this, but I wasn't going for the $13,000 (high quote) but found a shop that would paint my truck for around $5,000. Still a lot of money but at this time around I was working and had more money than time.

Since you still seem "not sure" of what you want to eventually be your finished product, I propose that if you do want to DIY, that you first assure that your truck will not continue to rust. If you have no problem leaving dents as a legacy and they tell an unspoken story, well so be it. So you don't have a lot of time and your work interferes with your truck, so what, prime a door, one day, prime the cab on a long weekend, do some body filler and so on. The truck may look hodge-podge for a while but you are working toward a goal and when you get to that point and you are ready for a final coat whether it be primer, rattle-can camoflage, grafitti whatever then there you have it. If you change your mind twenty years later...your truck will still be there.

Hank

Edited October 22, 2012 by HanksB3B

[HanksB3B]

01. After sandblasting all parts are shot with zinc chromate to retard rust.

If you like that color, you could stop here.

02. Body Filler is applied and sanded as the “blocking-out” process begins

03. Second coat of primer

04. One of the “tricks of the trade” is to mist the prime coat, (with an opposing color)

then further sanding with a block-out pad reveals the high and low spots that require

either more sanding or additional filler.

05. After the paint was aplied, the parts were buffed out (not shown) using a power

buffer by someone who did this all day, 5 days a week A skill set I don't have

and would be afraid to "burn-through" the paint. I think this is where wet-sanding

and hand compounding could be used instead.

Edited October 23, 2012 by HanksB3B

[HanksB3B]

Jeff,

My cab was the exception. It was not sandblasted or zinc chromated. and may be closer to what you will do. Sanding to stable substrate (good paint) or (bare metal), some body hammering and use of a dolly, which is a essential body tool along with a body hammer. The less filler the better. Por-15 was applied to all seams. Special attention was given to the rain gutters above the doors.

I sure liked what I saw this particular Saturday.

Hand tools required, body hammers, a dolly, and a set of sanding tools should be less than $100. Unless for some reason you feel compelled to do so, I would definately avoid buying from a local mom and pop Body Supply. That will add 25%-50% more in cost than a wholesale house. If you do your home work you could complete your truck (even with a finish coat) including tools and supplies somewhere in the neighborhood between $1,200 to $2,000.

Primed or otherwise, it's still only a truck....

Hank

Edited October 22, 2012 by HanksB3B

[Jeff Balazs]

Thanks for all the great input. I have the hammers and dollies.....but will need some of those fancy sanding blocks. And a decent gun.

I have used a turbine to spray wood finishes in the shop for years.....but I suppose I will have to spray auto type finishes with air. Too bad as there is almost no mess, mixing fuss or over spray with my Accuspray turbine gun and waterborne finish system. I cringe every time I think of spraying this truck.....it just seems like I am going back to the old oil based lacquers and crap we used to spray back in the dark ages. :eek:

Jeff

Hank....your truck is way too shiny. I think a rub down with a brown scotchbrite pad will fix that.

[ggdad1951]

Thanks for all the great input. I have the hammers and dollies.....but will need some of those fancy sanding blocks. And a decent gun.

I have used a turbine to spray wood finishes in the shop for years.....but I suppose I will have to spray auto type finishes with air. Too bad as there is almost no mess, mixing fuss or over spray with my Accuspray turbine gun and waterborne finish system. I cringe every time I think of spraying this truck.....it just seems like I am going back to the old oil based lacquers and crap we used to spray back in the dark ages. :eek:

Jeff

Hank....your truck is way too shiny. I think a rub down with a brown scotchbrite pad will fix that.

my accuspray/turbine system can spray automotive finishes....I just haven't!

OT which water system do you use, I use what is now a General Finishes product Enduro-poly, I think they bought them out of California. Stuff works great!

[ggdad1951]

PS for Hank:

I doub't I'll ever consider FEF "done" or "complete" as I'll always tinker with him and keep looking for BETTER parts or NOS that surpass what I have in now. I think there will always be SOMETHING that needs attention.

[Dave72dt]

It's hard to justify buying expensive equipment for a one time or occasional project. Take a good look at your truck and count how many flat panels you have and how big they are. Not many and not that big. Those are the only places you can use those really long sanding blocks. The longest I use on a regular basis is about 12" and more often about 6", just the typical cheap sanding blocks. I also use some flat hard rubber pads that are about the size of a note card.

You don't need a high end spray gun either for the level of finish you want. A good middle of the road level will work fine and unless you're a pro doing a lot of spraying, you won't notice the difference. Often you can pick up a package deal with a primer and finish gun, kind of like a starter pack if you will. They aren't high end but they aren't entirely junk either. I bought one of those packs some years ago just for the primer gun and have since used the finish gun for doing Rustoleum with no complaints on either.

The new automotive paints are waterborne and since you're already used to that, buy a pint of it and try it in your turbine gun on a scrap panel.

[Jeff Balazs]

Mark;

Yes General Finishes is what we all use here. Used to be Enduro. In our climate it is all just strain and shoot. No fussing about. When the poly came out years ago it was the best. General has made several improvements since they bought out Enduro. These days I use the Exterior 450 and the pre-cat most often. The spray on stains are great too. I wish they made an automotive finish.

The old Accuspray equip. is really great. As close to flawless as it gets. My old cup gun is at least 10 years old and still works perfect every time. Now that 3M took them over....price is higher and they have made some questionable design changes. Fuji has a nice gravity feed turbine gun that would probably do the job.....but by the time you buy all the tips etc.... around $400. I suppose this would be OK if I sprayed oil based products all the time.

Dave Can you recommend some gun brands ? Also what sort of mixing etc.. kit will I need as a minimum?

Thanks, Jeff

[Dave72dt]

Going back to the TCP site under spray guns, The G7000 package looks identical to what I bought about 10 years ago and at about the same price. It may or may not be up to the levelor performance you're looking for. My personal choice today if buying a combo and just getting started in the painting business for personal use would be the Devilbiss Finishline FLG 4, comes with 3 tips, can be set up for solvent or waterborne. My current top coat/clear coat gun is a Sharpe Cobalt HVLP w/1.4 tip which is not a high end gun today but when new was pretty good. I'm at the point where I need to move up in gun quality, both in primer and top coat/clear. Seriously considering the Iwata LPH-400LVX.

Not sure what you need or are asking on mixing. Restoration Shop or Custom Shop at TCP offers a BC/CC kit consisting of a gallon of color, reducer, clear and clear activator in low VOC for CA use. Standard mixing cups, stir sticks, strainers you probably already have. You will need to ensure you have an adequate air supply and personal protective equipment.

TCP is not the only game in town, so to speak, but is very good on prices, delivery of product and have a wide range of product to choose from.

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Dave;

I don't really have any equipment suitable for mixing or applying automotive paints.

The stuff I have is used with water base products and once contaminated with oil base of any type is pretty much useless to me. The products I use are shot straight from the container so I don't even have to test viscosity or thin it....ever. I said before I wish they made automotive finish.....'cause if they did this truck would be a lot farther along.

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

Okay, lets start with the basics. Air compressor - CFM rating, tank capacity assuming you intend to spray the paint and since you can't reuse your turbine gun once you put solvent bsased in it, you'll either need new spray equipment or replace your turbine with another

Paint -solid color-easier to apply than metallics, Automotive acrylic enamel (TCP) runs about 75/gal kit. Dries slow. Urethane enamel - about 100/gal kit. BC/CC about 220/gal kit but does contain a gal of clear coat also. All these require a substate meaning primers and sealers go on first. Painting your entire truck, inside and out, both sides of every panel, will take about 3 gal of color. Acrylic enamel would be very similar to the original paint on your truck. Some colors, regardless of type cost more bercause of the cost of the pigment in the toners. Reds are a good example.

Implement enamels, including Rustoleum types are typically less expensive than automotive paints and don't have a lot of UV protection built in. They also dry slow. Hardeners will add some UV and speed the dry time. These can also be applied over primers.

Mixing cups-plastic see-through cups gradient marked with different ratios for easy mixing,about 2 bucks apiece, sometimes free at a local jobber, same with mesh strainers and stir sticks. Cups can be cleaned and reused. Stir sticks are the same as you would get for stirring the latex paint you would use on your house.

That's a basic idea. Once you narrow your choice of paint type/brand, your questions and answers can get more specific.

[Jeff Balazs]

Hi Dave;

Basics are a good place to start.

I am not really certain if using a turbine gun is even a viable option? The only one I have seen that might work is a gravity feed Fuji....and it has a fairly small cup. The reviews said it was a great touch up gun but no one had painted an entire car with it.

As far as air goes my main air supply is a 2 cylinder oil type compressor rated at 6.5 CFM/ 120#. It has a 60 gal tank. I have another similar portable with a 12 gal tank that can be hooked up to the shop manifold. It is rated at 6 CFM @ 100#. I don't know if this enough air?

If I understand your comment It sounds like I would need 3 gal of paint. Would I need a similar amount of primer as well?

Thanks, Jeff

[ggdad1951]

Jeff, why do you say you can't go back and forth between solvent and water based? I have with my Accuspray system with no issues, just have to make sure you clean it WELL! Maybe a different tip and nozzle for the paint vs. lacquer.

[Jeff Balazs]

Jeff, why do you say you can't go back and forth between solvent and water based? I have with my Accuspray system with no issues, just have to make sure you clean it WELL! Maybe a different tip and nozzle for the paint vs. lacquer.

Mark;

It is not a good idea. No matter how much you clean it. I have had several friends try this with disastrous effects. And once you run solvent based through it that gun is a solvent gun from then on. One of my buddies fought with this for quite a time and had to deal with more than one project that he had finish failure on. I don't know if you have had your gun completely apart but there are passages inside the handle which will get a build up over time. If you only spray water base this has little or no ill effects.....but the minute solvent hits it....the problem starts.

Jeff

[Dave72dt]

The two compressors together should be enough. There's a test you can do when you have a gun to verify you have at least the minimum. Amount of primer is variable. You can get by with the same amount. I tend to use about twice as much primer as color simply because I sand a lot of it off and reapply as needed when blocking.

My goals on how the finish should look may be different than yours. You could spray a couple coats of primer/sealer, hit it with a scuff pad and spray color on and call it done. I'm working my way towards a show finish so I spend a lot of time before and after the color goes on trying to achieve that. Still have a long ways to go and I'm learning on every project, applying that to the next one. What I learned on Mark's got applied to a lawn tractor. About 60 hrs of work in a lawn tractor! What I learned on that is being applied to the current project. Every project should be critiqued and used as a learning experience. I might even finish one of my own someday.