1930 Chrysler CJ build (UK)

[dudford]

Hi,

Some of you may have seen my introduction thread which i started last month:

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=31894

I'm now going to tie that off and start a true project thread as I felt that was like an extention of an introduction that had gone on long enough.

I'll admit, I'm new to working on these iconic American cars so, as I work through this build I'll be posting my progress as well as various things I am sketchy on. I figure I might as well utilise the resource of all your knowledge as long as I'm welcome here.

So far with the thanks of the people on this forum as well as the AACA and HAMB forums (especially Rusty O'Toole, hkestes, drillmastertommy, Desotodav) the car has been identified as a 1930 Chrysler CJ Coupe. How many of these are still around? Rare or not? Some say it is but its hard to find information over this side of the pond. Also, someone on the AACA forum suggested the CJ stood for "Chrysler Junior" but then others disagreed. Well with or without the history I've made a start. You will also note, the mopar heads in here, that this is running a 1953 Plymouth 218 straight 6 only currently missing a starter motor.

However, HURRAH! I found a compatible starter motor in Kingsbury, California. Thats currently being shipped to me. As soon as I've got it, I'll turn her over and post a vid. In the meantime I've been assessing the rot and rust while having a closer look at the engine and running gear. These pics show the floor pan after I pulled the seats out:

Yeah there's day light shining through in places but I expected that. I'm actually really suprised that its in such good condition. This car has not been sitting in a bone dry desert, its been sitting outside in a damp and drizzly UK. The main point for rot was where the winding rear window allowed water down behind the front seats. I have to say I love the winding rear window though, I've never seen this before so its a real novelty to me (see video link:

Another funny moment from today was finding a lump of "filler" which in fact turned out to be a huge lump of cement! I reckon the guy who did it must've been repairing a wall at home and then thought he had some cement left over and needed to throw it somewhere:

[dudford]

I do have a few questions, first one is about the roof. Why oh why isn't the roof one solid sheet of steel? It's like the factory was preparing for a sunroof but threw in a piece of wood. Is this original? The coachwork/woodwork in it is the same style and age as the body so it must've been done in the Detroit plant?:

I also have a mechanical question. When I was looking at the gearbox it struck me that it looks ridiculously tiny for the 1953 Plymouth 218 its hooked up to. Can anyone confirm that this gearbox is completely wrong? If so, is it the original 1930 Chrysler engined gearbox?

[dudford]

There are some serial numbers on both sides:

Thanks for any info on these things and I'll be adding more to this thread as I go.

Cheers!

[drillmastertommy]

That gearbox doesn't look any smaller than mine which is also attached to a 218, your average 3 speed crash box doesn't need to be huge. I'll put up a pic for you to compare later.

Sounds like you have managed to sort your starter motor which is good, if you do have any issues I now have one spare on the bench.

Tom.

[Young Ed]

That looks like a good chance of being the original 1930 unit. All of the 3spds were column shifted by 1953.

The story I've always heard on the roof insert is the technology to stamp that large of a sheet metal piece wasn't around yet.

[greg g]

Most of the roofs of cars of that era were a composite structure, usually of a wire mesh and horsehair, jute, impregnated with a tar like binder and then a weather proof fabric top cover. My guess would be that the metal piece is a replacement for a failed or deteriorated original assembly.

I believe I read that the CJ was a down market model, without all the bells and whistles of the regular Chrylser line. An aquaintence of mine recently pulled a 31 CJ sedan out of a barn, and did some looking into the Chrysler models of the 30 and found some informationn on the CJ that alluded to its being "All of Chrylsers engineering in a lower priced version".

The original engine would have been a 196.8 cubic inch iteration. The earlier model engine (pre 35) had only a partial wate jacket on the left side leaving rounded shape of the cylinder castings easy to see. Only the upper part of the casting had the water jacket.

I like the color combination are you going to keep that? Perhaps some orange paint on the wheels to liven things up a bit???

The gear box is probably a Crash box, without synchros, so theres not a lot of stuff inside it. Most Chrysler Corp Cars lost thier floor shifters in 1939. But it would have shared bolt ups to just about any Chrylser Engine/Bellhousing.

I noticed the tail lights look to be from a lorry or a caravan. You might want to try the AACA forums for information specific to the Chrysler C models.

Edited April 23, 2012 by greg g

[TodFitch]

That looks like a good chance of being the original 1930 unit. All of the 3spds were column shifted by 1953.

The story I've always heard on the roof insert is the technology to stamp that large of a sheet metal piece wasn't around yet.

I agree with Young Ed on both points. I think they could have probably stamped out a roof panel big enough for a coupe but couldn't for a sedan and the mindset just wasn't there.

That said, Chrysler usually shipped their cars to England completely knocked down and for many models and years the sourced a local interior and top for the cars assembled there. For that reason the '33 Chrysler Kew Six Saloon (engineering code PCX known in the US as a '33 Plymouth Six sedan) had a folding sun roof arrangement that was never done in the US. For the US style roof construction for that era but not necessarily for the '30 see: http://www.ply33.com/Repair/roof

Edited April 23, 2012 by TodFitch

[dudford]

That gearbox doesn't look any smaller than mine which is also attached to a 218, your average 3 speed crash box doesn't need to be huge. I'll put up a pic for you to compare later.

Sounds like you have managed to sort your starter motor which is good, if you do have any issues I now have one spare on the bench.

Tom.

Great shout thanks Tom. When mine arrives and I find that its all rotten inside with no internal workings I'll turn the air blue then calmly remember your gracious offer, thank you!

My only issue with the gearbox is that it appears to be such a bodge, the housing on the ball joint of the shifter is all torn up at the back then the bell housing it should marry up to has a gap where all the dirt and crap can slip into the trans box. It also looks like a modern clutch has been installed too, its all quite odd.

[TodFitch]

Great shout thanks Tom. When mine arrives and I find that its all rotten inside with no internal workings I'll turn the air blue then calmly remember your gracious offer, thank you!

My only issue with the gearbox is that it appears to be such a bodge, the housing on the ball joint of the shifter is all torn up at the back then the bell housing it should marry up to has a gap where all the dirt and crap can slip into the trans box. It also looks like a modern clutch has been installed too, its all quite odd.

For what it is worth, the casting part number on the side of the transmission (looks like 651358 to me in the photo) would be from the 1934-36 time frame for its first use. I wouldn't be too surprised if a light truck would have used that up into the '40s too.

[Young Ed]

This is my 46 1/2 ton trans. As far as I know all the 39-47 1/2 tons used this one or the optional 4spd. Could have been used up to 38 I'm not familiar with those trucks

[Merle Coggins]

Here's the trans on the back of a '35 Dodge D2 engine I had a look at about a year ago. It looks similar to what you have.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Merle Coggins

[dudford]

Here's the trans on the back of a '35 Dodge D2 engine I had a look at about a year ago. It looks similar to what you have.

Id say that is almost definately the same. A Dodge D2 huh? Well this is yet another hurdle of information to absorb. Good job im only 28, i got some reading to do!

[dudford]

I get an email at work today to say that something really heavy just got delivered... I literally bounced off the walls in my office and raced home to see my delivery.

Yes, at long last... My starter motor fresh from Kingsbury, California!

Clean up and strip down planned for the weekend and a video of "waking the beast" to follow on the weekend with all being well!

[dudford]

Here's the trans on the back of a '35 Dodge D2 engine I had a look at about a year ago. It looks similar to what you have.

Any ideas on the performance or compatablity for the 1935 dodge d2 gearbox coupled to a 1953 p24 218? Its got to be a pretty simple 3 speed box, what are the pitfalls/benefits?

[dudford]

What an awful day!

I require help, advice and counsel... would a hug be too much to ask?

Starter motor woes!

So some of you may be aware that I had purchased a 1953 Plymouth Starter that would be compatible with the flathead engine in my 1930 Chrysler. I waited weeks for it to arrive from California and had every intention of bringing the car back to life. Well it didn't go my way today.

I took the starter, placed it in the bellhousing mounting and... it didn't marry up! It appears that the body of the starter is too wide to sit in and sit flush with the engine block...

At first thought I had something wrong but I'm not sure that I do. The engine is definately a 1953 Plymouth 218 (block number p24) and the starter is definately the corresponding one for the engine.

So I've scratched my head, spoken at length with my Dad about it and rung various friends to ask for points of view.

Here's what I've cobbled together in my brain: There are two components at play, the engine and the bellhousing. I now think that the bellhousing is actually the original 1930 Chrysler CJ bellhouse. The reason I think this is that the original 1930 Chrysler engine was lacking a water jacket on the side of the starter motor therefore allowing tolerance to fit a starter closer to the block on the bell house mountings, see pic of 1930 Chrysler Block below:

My block below and starter placement:

I toyed with grinding the side off the starter to make it fit but I now realise that it would probably foul the electromagnetic properties of the starter.

Here's where i need the advice, should I now chop out the bellhousing, and fabricate my own so that the starter will mount correctly? Any other ideas, most welcome.

If I've overlooked something PLEASE PLEASE point it out to me!

[drillmastertommy]

Is it that the body of the starter is too wide or is the starter long enough to be fouling on any oil filter fittings on the block?

If you want to come over Chichester way next week and do a comparison your more than welcome.

[TodFitch]

Looks like the same issue people run into when putting a later engine into a '33 or '34 Plymouth: The '35 and up blocks with the full length water jacket are a little wider and to account for that the factory redesigned the bell housing mount for the start to move it a little further down and out.

On the swap of a later engine into the '33 and '34 Plymouth a fairly standard work around is to grind the side of the starter. That always seemed a bit dodgy to me but everyone I've talked to who has done it says it works okay.

The other alternative is to machine the bell housing and/or make up an adaptor that moves the starter out and down a little.

[greg g]

What issues did your old starter have?? Is it possible to put the newer internals in the older starter? Not really sure about it but it might be a possibility.

[Young Ed]

I believe someone on this forum did the cutaway starter. I'm thinking Lou Earle however I couldnt find the post using search. Whoever I'm thinking of basically cut the side off the starter to clear the block.

[dudford]

When I bought the car there was no starter so that's where the confusion began. I'm 100% sure that the old timer I'd bought it from had something in there to start it but evidentally it was removed or destroyed before sale. I've written a letter to the guy to ask a few questions so shall await the outcome of that, worst case scenario is I'll be ignored. Might have to door step him in that case but not an ideal situation.

For now I experimented with removing about 5/8" off the drive end bracket where it fouls the block in order to see how much i would have to shave off the length of the yoke.

Even with this it stil fouls the block and I'm concerned whether the starter would actually spin if I trimmed an extra 1/8" off. Its also very close to the Through Bolt fixing, the Commutator End Bracket would be significantly changed and I would need to reposition one of the Brushes.

Essentially It would end up that the block becomes a part of the starter in terms of being absorbed as part of the yolk. I'm not sure that I like this idea, in fact I know I dont... annoying!

So speaking to a friend last night it was suggested that I rebuild the bellhouse. He asked me a rhetroical question, "What is the bellhouse for?" to which my reply was, "To keep the **** out". I looked at the pictures this morning and am curious as to whether to butcher the existing or rebuild it in its entirety out of aluminium plate. I've cobbled this together below and am hoping for anybodies point of view:

So if I cut the drive end bracket bellhouse mounting and grind out a new position would it work?

Is it that the body of the starter is too wide or is the starter long enough to be fouling on any oil filter fittings on the block?

If you want to come over Chichester way next week and do a comparison your more than welcome.

Thanks Tommy, its not the length its the girth (Hahahaha, sorry childish ) I would like to meet up at some point though, I'll stay in contact.

[Joe Flanagan]

Is there any way you can find a bellhousing from a later flathead? I don't know if the mounting holes would match up to your 30's era frame, but it's a possibility.

[hkestes41]

So speaking to a friend last night it was suggested that I rebuild the bellhouse. He asked me a rhetroical question, "What is the bellhouse for?" to which my reply was, "To keep the **** out". I looked at the pictures this morning and am curious as to whether to butcher the existing or rebuild it in its entirety out of aluminium plate. I've cobbled this together below and am hoping for anybodies point of view:

Dudford,

I went out this morning and took a couple photos of a spare 57 bellhousing i have. As you can see your starter mounts much higher than the 57.

In the one photo I tried to show the distance of the starter opening from the center of the input shaft opening on the transmission side of the bellhousing. In the other I tried to show the distance from the center of the starter opening to the locator pin opening on the bellhousing.

When I get home from Church this afternoon I will make a pattern of the mounting face of the bellhousing and starter location on paper and mail it to you. Then if you want, you can use that pattern to transfer to wood to mock up everything to be sure it fits and transfer to an aluminum plate. Cut out your aluminum plate and sandwich between the block and bellhousing. If you take the thickness of the aluminum plate and remove the same amount from the face of the bellhousing everything should still line up. If it would be too much off the face of the bellhousing to leave material for bolting it up maybe you could take some off the front end where it bolts to the block and some off the back end where the transmission bolts on as long as you remove an amount equal to the aluminum plate you should be OK.

I made the template this afternoon. It is not perfect but will get you close. I am off on a business trip this evening but my wife is going to get it in the mail to you. Hope it helps.

Edited May 6, 2012 by hkestes41

[james49ply]

looking at your pictures it appears that the engine block you have is not the origional one, check the numbers on the engine (hopefully there) and determine what engine you have and get the bell housing for that year, or rebuild the old 30's starter.

[TodFitch]

looking at your pictures it appears that the engine block you have is not the origional one, check the numbers on the engine (hopefully there) and determine what engine you have and get the bell housing for that year, or rebuild the old 30's starter.

He's already done that, the engine is from a '53 Plymouth and the transmission appears to be mid-30s...

[Andydodge]

have you given any thought to using an aftermarket later V8 style gear reduction starter, these have a much smaller starter body, together with offset mounts and other features to allow them to fit in very small spaces, the trick is finding one with the correct throw and teeth number, etc ........as you are in pommy land there maybe not the same acces to US based V8 HiPo stuff but any competent shop that deals in US speed equipement should be able to have a listing........I'd start with Mopar V8 GR starters simply because the actual 2 hole mount looks the same as the later ones ..........anyway hope this helps......btw you asked about why the factory roof had the hole in it as if they intended to put a sunroof in..........lol.........the hole was as far as I have read due to the fact that the sheet metal stamping equipement was not able to stamp out a one piece sheet of metal with the roof sides, so it was easier to leave the hole to be filled with a canvas insert. One piece "turret" tops as they were marketed as did not come into vogue until ablout 1936/37 when the stamping presses where finally large enough to accomodate the large one piece sheets........anyway, nice car......andyd