The quest for combustion

[jimwheeldon]

Well I still am trying to get my new project running. I replaced the battery cables(very large, very spendy!) A new battery, points ,condensor,coil, sparkplugs,and starter solonoid. Now I have spark and it turns over with the key. It still turns over pretty slowly...I'm assuming it's because the crank bearings haven't seen oil since 1967. I unhooked the fuel line going to the fuel pump and ran a line into a gas can. I got it to pop a few times..but now it seems flooded. I pulled the plugs and it appears a couple of the plugs haven't been firing so I guess I'll put in some new wires, a cap and rotor. Any help or suggestions would be great...I'm getting a little frustrated. Does anyone know where I can get a carb rebuild kit? Or has anyone tried the Langford Holley 2 barrel conversion? Seems pretty reasonable. I was hoping to keep it original though. Thanks for your help-Jim

[Norm's Coupe]

I bought my carb rebuild kit from NAPA. That was back in 1995 though. All they need is the numbers off your carb. and the brand name. Think most of them are DG6 Carter 1 barrel. Might want to check yours though. You never know if someone changed it before you got the car.

If NAPA can't come up with a part number, let me know. I have the box from mine stored away. I can dig it out and check the numbers if you have trouble. Or, maybe someone else has the part number handy.

[Normspeed]

Jim, you might try a good shot of canned starting fluid (ether) down the carb.

I've bought carb kits for the Carter Ball & Ball carb from 3 sources and the best deal yet for me is NAPAonline.com. They're decent kits, available and priced fairly. The NAPAonline part # is 25066A for the B&B carb.

You can check the plug wires with a cheap ohmmeter. Harbor freight almost gives them away. If there is a bad wire it will be off the scale on ohms compared to the others. If yours are real wire cores, it's unlikely they will be bad. At worst maybe an end clip or three might need tweaking or replacing.

Make sure the plug wires and coil wire are firmly snapped into the distributor towers. I have to grab mine with a small pliers and push them in hard. They will really click into place. You might re-check your plug wire order as well.

Make sure your points are at .020 for best starting.

Hope you get her running soon, it can get frustrating. One fellow on the forum some time back went for months trying to get his to run. It turned out to be the wrong distributor rotor not making contact in the cap If I remember right.

[Guest jtw3749c]

As for the carb kit, I found this at Autozone but if they have it, a $5 savings.

Part Number: 96-102A

Weight: 0.27 lbs.

Note: Carter model BB

O.E.M. #D6A2, D6H2, D6U1, E7W1

Pricing:

$14.99

For my money, from what you are saying, you have fire and gas. It probably isn't getting enough from the idle circuit in the carb. If it set as long as you state, I would bet the carb is varnished and needs a good cleaning. It helped mine a ton.

[greg g]

verify the firing order is correct. When I first tried to start my rebuild I was sure everything was correct. All I was getting was a lot of starter work and a few pops out the carb. Everything was correct except I had the plug wires one tower off onthe distributor. A quick correction and it started so quickly, it startled me. double check by bringing #1 to tdc and assure the rotor is pointing to the tower for the wire that goes to #1. If it is way off you are 180 degrees out. If this is the case simply undo the dist hold down bolt, raise the distributor an inch or so, twist the rotor to the correct orientation, then push the dist down and refasten it.

[jimwheeldon]

I looked at the rotor on my dist. It points to the firewall when No#1 (Closest to the radiator ...right?) is at TDC. Shouldn't the rotor point to the corresponding cylinder at TDC? I was careful to mark the position of the rotor when I removed the dist. for point and condensor replacement. Perhaps someone screwed up in 1967....Seems unlikely , but i guess it could happen. Please detail how I could confirm this. When No#6 piston is at TDC the rotor points towrds the front of the car at perhaps 10 oclock..hmmmm-I hope it could really be that easy!

[Merle Coggins]

#1 and #6 pistons will be at TDC at the same time. It's just a matter of which one is on it's compression stroke. Which way the rotor points doesn't matter much as long as it matches up with the proper plug wire. If your rotor indeed points at the firewall at #1 TDC Compression stoke, that be sure that #1 plug wire is in that position in the cap. Then follow around the cap, in the direction of rotor rotation, with the proper firing order. (1-5-3-6-2-4).

Merle

[jimwheeldon]

Just for giggles I turned the dist. 180 and tried to fire her up...it fired but chuffed a cloud out the carb....so I'm assuming thats not right. I'll have trouble static timing it, I can't turn it over by hand. The starter turns it over fine, perhaops with quick reactions I can get it to TDC. I did buy a carb kit from NAPA-hopefully I can get that in tommorow. Looks a little daunting, lots and lots of gaskets. Any tips would be appreciated. Befuddles me that it won't run by spraying down the carb. Does it need alot to fire up? I usually give it a 1-2 second burst of starting fluid. I can see fluid in the bottom of the manifold. I sucked that out and started over just in case that flooded it.I'm really scratching my head on this one. Spark, compression and fuel,it should go boom! I need to figure out the timing...at least I could eliminate that then.Thanks for everyones help..any tips would be great -Jim:confused:

[Normspeed]

Jim, I'm surprised it didn't kick over with starting fluid. I'd hold off on the carb rebuild until you at least get it to run briefly with starting fluid or primed with gas. No sense in adding more variables like a carb rebuild until you have a benchmark. When you get to the carb kit, PM me and I'll tel ya what I know. Or do a search on the forum, there were some earlier threads with rebuilding tips.

[Young Ed]

Don't let the kit fool you. There are only a few gaskets you actually use. That kit covers a ton of similar carbs. My tips-use something flat and some sand paper to sand the top and fuel bowl. And I like to put 2 bolts in the bottom flange and put the bolts in the vice so I know it can't fall down!

[jimwheeldon]

I think I'll take norms advice and leave the carb until I can get the thing to run. I know the carb must be clogged-the fuel pump is pumpping but no gas squirts into the carb. I have to think the non-running is because the starter jsut can't turn the engine fast enough. It pops once or twice when you initially hit the starter after the charger has been on it- but then the starter slows to a methodical slow rotation. Would the starter create enough ooomph to get the oil pump to lube the crank bearings? Even when I had the head off you could not turn it by hand..had to use a wrench and maybe 150-175 ft. lbs. to get it to rotate. Everything sounds fine when rotating so i don't think it's a mechanical problem...I just assumed the lower end was bone dry after 4 decades.hmmmmm:confused:

[claybill]

it should turn over by hand (or wrench) with 35 foot lbs....not 150! (previous forum talk) sounds like somethng is wrong.

carbs...take the top off the float bowl and clean it out with carb cleaner and a thin wire to clean out jets and soft wire brush(or toothbrush) the floatbowl .

careful to get the float in right and the little pin and the check valve when you put the float back in. there will be some tension on the spring but it will clamp down..be smooth!!

bill

[jimwheeldon]

If I had brakes I'd pull the thing down the road and really put some spin on her!!!! I suppose the hard rotation could be a seized bearing....I was hoping not. If i couild get ity to foir and run momentarily ,it would tell me alot. The thought of pulling the motor and starting over makes me cringe. Anyone had a similar situation? hard turning-seized bearing- dry motor -whatever clues would be cool-Jim

[JIPJOBXX]

Do you have a compression gage? Or can you borrow one? If you can get one take out spark plugs and put compression gage in number one hole (first one forward) Now place compression gage on or in number one hole and crank over engine. When the compression gage is showing the highest compression reading this is you will be at top dead center of the piston and this is when number one cylinder is suppose to ignite. If you can do this than make sure your rotor in your cap is pointing toward the number one plug wire in cap!(this is the wire that runs to the spark plug!) This should get you into the ball park for the firing order. If you can not get compression gage than look down into number one spark plug hole and watch the vlv open up and close. When bought intake and exhaust are closed together and the piston is at its top (inside cylinder you will be on number one in firing order) I have taken a small copper wire and stuck into cylinder hole and felt the top of the piston to verify this out! If you do this turn engine over by hand and not by starter. Good luck!

[Jim Yergin]

Jim,

I have the same situation with the engine in my P12 but unfortunately do not have a solution yet. The engine was supposedly a remanufactured engine that had never been started. It came with one of my parts cars and I do not know anything about its actual internal condition. I got it started after it sat for a number of years but it would not idle at below 1200 rpm's. I removed the rebuilt carb and had it checked. When I reinstalled the carb I could not get it to start. I am experiencing the same symptoms as you. Very difficult to rotate engine by hand at certain spots in the rotation, almost as if it is binding up internally. Starter will initially turn the engine over at a decent speed for a few revolutions but very quickly slows way down. I've tried different batteries, increased the size of the battery cables and checked the condition of the starter but no success. The problem was not present when I initially started the car. I've decided that if it is an internal problem, rather than spend the time and money tearing into this engine, I will spend the effort on rebuilding a 230 that I would prefer to have in the car

I will be interested to see if you come up with an answer. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Jim Yergin

[1just4don]

Grab your can of WD-40 and use that instead of the ether. Better cause it lubes as it cranks where ether is dry. It will start an engine quicker and easier than ether too,,,specially those one cylinder wonders like chain saws and lawn mowers that can drive one nuts. It isnt the cure all but sure is better than the alternative,takes the flood out of it too. otherwise I also vote for breaking it to lead on the end of a chain. They start easier then.

I think I have never met a motor I couldnt turn using the fan blade for leverage and my other fingers holding the belt tight. IF it doesnt work,you may have more problems. Is there a way to pump the oil pressure up on these girls before starting?? Then squirt oil down the plug holes . IF not, might be reason to look deeper

[jimwheeldon]

I'm going to get the battery load tested right now...IT WOULD NEVER GO BELOW 3 AMPS when trickle charging it and now after use it always pulls 6 amps...fingers crossed -it couldn't be that easy!

[jimwheeldon]

Battery tested good..The guy at the auto parts store said if the distrbutor is advanced too far the car will turn over slow..does that sound right? I'm thinking if he is right I could retard the spark and get it running and then rset it when the motors loosened up..possible? Weigh in.

[1just4don]

Does you emergency brake work at all??? If it does at all, tow it around with a spare hand always ready for the park brake,you can easy do that. IF no emergency brake,tie a low inflated old spare tire between your back bumper and an OLD pee-cup you dont care as much about as your daily driver caddy.Or borrow one,,, and push it to start. Did it for years with no dents to fix. Its amazing how much faster a car will start doing that. Even if you just dug them out of the grove or barn. It cures lots of ills. OR tie a big inflated tube to push on if the bumpers match pretty well. You can push direct on the bumper too,BUT might scratch something you would rather not,,,but works

[jimwheeldon]

I'm considering filling the crankcase the rest of the way up with kerosene...pulling the plugs and turning it over periodically maybe that would melt the sludge and get it to spin again. Just a thought as i'm running low on them.

[chesterx]

Have you checked the amount of play in the timing chain?