Brakes...do I need cylinders?..PICS

[Socal48]

On my 48' Plymouth, the driver's side front wheel was locking up and releasing slowly. The brakes have been done front and back according to the receipts the PO gave me (I will check all of them anyway ). I know that this car wasn't driven much and sat for a while before I got it.

I pulled the front that was locking up and things look good inside with new shoes and cylinders, although some oxidation on the cylinders.

I loosely placed a tie down strap around the brakes to check and see what was it doing when releasing the brakes. The upper cylinder was pushing and returning normal I guess, but the lower one was barely pushing at all and not out enough to engage it's shoe.

I had my wife slowly push on the brakes and by the 3rd time the upper started spewing fluid.

Should I replace all the cylinders? could they be the problem of the locking up and slow releasing?

[1940plymouth]

I surely would replace the one that is leaking.

If you are interested in having them rebuilt, check with White Post Resorations and Apple Hydrualics, both do a great job

[Socal48]

I'm replacing it for sure...but are the cylinders the cause of my tire locking and dragging?

[Don Coatney]

If you push the brake pedal with the drum not in place the wheel cylinders will over travel and spew. This most likely is what happened to you. The inside of your drums and the brake shoes look dry indication no signs of prior leakage.

[Socal48]

They were dry before...is the cause of the lower one not pushing a cylinder problem or adjustment?

and the locking up could it also be an adjustment problem?

[old stovebolt]

In the photos, I see what appears to be brake fluid on the linings.

If so, that will cause the brakes to pull / drag. I would replace the cylinders,

linings and clean the drums...

[Plymouthy Adams]

the inner bore is what we need a picture of concerning rebuild/replace..if they are in good shape..suggest you could rebuild the cylinders..the kits are cheap enough and available through Advance Auto..also do not overlook deteriated rubber brake hose..they have a tendency to go soft internally and collapse even though they look good on the outside..this is also why a brake will work when pushing and stay binding when relased..you have upward to 1200 PSI on the push and only the return spring to move the fluid back to the master cylinder..

[Socal48]

Thanks...I am going to check the bores and prob rebuild all of them just to be sure and replace the hoses.... I'm not taking my family out for a drive till I'm sure...the kids are excited to go.

[windsor8]

Looks like the "push pin" on the top cylinder is not seated on the shoe correctly.

I sure that push pin is not the proper name.

[Socal48]

It's because as Don C. explained I pushed on the brakes without the drums on causing it to overextend and spew fluid.

[greg g]

Even a small bit of brake fluid on the friction material will cause the brake to lock up. I would sand the shoe a bit. Also adjustment is critical and is a bit more involved process that with bendix type brakes. If the brake shoes are not moving equally as with an improper adjustment, it will put undo strain on the other components. A look at the contact patch and wear pattern on the shoes will give you an indication if the wear is even around the shoe, or whether it is concentrated on one area. There is a detailed adjustment procedure on the host pasge of the web site that supports this fourm, that details the process of a proper adjsutment. Use the works in progress navigation button where GTK describes his experience.

Also make sure that the relief port in teh bottom of the Master Cylinder fluid reservoir is free and clear to allow for the return of fluid and pressure whent he brake pedal is released.

[BobT-47P15]

You mentioned that you would likely replace the brake hoses.....they are

also a possible source of the failure to release. They can collapse on the

inside, even though looking fine on the outside. The collapsed lining prevents

the fluid from returning to the master quickly. That happened with my rear

brakes......so you might replace that hose also.

[Socal48]

I just ordered rebuild kits and both the front and center rear hoses.

Now on to figuring out the steering..it feels like I'm steering a tug boat.

[1941Rick]

My 41 steered like a tank until I put new tires on it....what a difference....15" radials.

How are your tires?

[OldDad67]

Are your front shocks frame mounted? I can't tell by the photos. Thanks

[Socal48]

My 41 steered like a tank until I put new tires on it....what a difference....15" radials.

How are your tires?

Tires are like new, I know bias ply tires ride different than radials, they tend to wander a little, but my steering wheel has about half a turn of play.

I have been researching on here on how too adjust the box, so my steps will be

1. check for excessive play with the tires on the ground by having someone turn the wheel back and forth while I check the steering linkage...etc

2. back the adjustment nut off the top of the gear box, check for play by pushing and pulling the steering wheel

3. back the adjustment nut off the top of the gear box, remove shims from gear box....

[Socal48]

Are your front shocks frame mounted? I can't tell by the photos. Thanks

Not yet.

[Cpt.Fred]

in search for the cause of your steering wheel's play you might also want to check the front wheel bearing seats.

my bearing settings are correct, but i still have some play, so i took everything apart and noticed the seats are moving on the axle...

i still don't know what to do about it, but since you're checking everything now you might want to think about this as well,

your axles look a lot like mine on these photos.

best,

fred

[JerseyHarold]

When is the last time the front end had a thorough grease job? There are lots of fittings that many newer techs aren't aware of, and that could contribute to your hard steering.

[greg g]

also check the condition of the isolator pad the is between steering box and the frame. If it goes mushy the box can move a lot before having any effect on the steering linkage.

[Socal48]

in search for the cause of your steering wheel's play you might also want to check the front wheel bearing seats.

my bearing settings are correct, but i still have some play, so i took everything apart and noticed the seats are moving on the axle...

i still don't know what to do about it, but since you're checking everything now you might want to think about this as well,

your axles look a lot like mine on these photos.

best,

fred

I did check the play by moving the tire back and forth with the car off the ground it didn't seem to have excessive play.

When is the last time the front end had a thorough grease job? There are lots of fittings that many newer techs aren't aware of, and that could contribute to your hard steering.

I don't know but it's on my list...it's not hard steering it's massive amounts of play.

also check the condition of the isolator pad the is between steering box and the frame. If it goes mushy the box can move a lot before having any effect on the steering linkage.

Will do...also when i remove the cover off the gear box to check on shims and when I'm ready to seal it back up and top it off, will RTV sealant work?

[Andydodge]

Grease?............there are only 20 grease nipples on the front end & steering.............lol...........I know every one of them mongrels by name..........lol............andyd

[greg g]

I believe there are 26 zerks for a complete front end lubrication. These include clutch and brake, pivots and the water pump if so equiped. By the way, my manual states that lubrication of these points should be done every 1000 miles. Same chart also notes Sea 50 for the oil filter (below freezing = sea 20)

[Socal48]

when i remove the cover off the gear box to check on shims and when I'm ready to seal it back up and top it off, will RTV sealant work? and what kind of oil does it take...gear oil?

[greg g]

manual calls for sae 90 gear lube. folks have used other stuff from grease to corn head lube to STP. There should be a paper gasket uder there, you can replicate it with gasket material, or a thin film of silicon would also work.