So. You wanna be a motorhead . . .

[JohnTeee]

'47 P15 Special Deluxe Convertible

Work on Special D is progressing slightly less than apace, but I'm getting there and learning new things.

Got the head off without too much difficulty. Rear bolts were the hardest to free up. Impact wrench and PB Blaster got 'em all. Made sure to lift it and not slide it. Three of the head bolts are more like studs with nuts welded on top; #14, #15 and #4. Was that to assist in pulling the engine? The head? I'll probably follow recommendations and replace all 21 bolts.

Bad news, the Temp Sensor Capillary tube broke off as the bulb was 'welded' to the head. Good news, I found a link to a repair for it elsewhere in the forums. One more project in this snowball!

Valves (all intake) are still pretty stuck; mostly #2, #3, #4 and #5. I've whacked the stickers, turned the engine over and watched them come back up and stick again. Trying more PB Blaster and some more whacks. New valve time? Can I/should I do just the intake?

Here's my 'Motorhead Wannabe' question.

The current head casting number looks like 1311818-28, 11/02/50

(Engine is E17670 *I15425*)

So, the head, at least, is not 'stock' and I can't find that engine number yet.

I've got another head that I'm thinking about taking to a shop to see if it can be used. It's a 1405849, 12/09/53. Researching the casting number on that head, I found an interesting article on http://www.allpar.com that said, "A new cylinder head provided a change in combustion chamber design, resulting in improved performance, though the 97 hp rating remained the same as the 1949-51 cars. This head (with part number 1405849 embossed on it) could be retrofitted back through the P15 models."

I've got to put a head back on it anyway . . . any thoughts? It's got some surface rust that should clean up; have to see how the insides clean up as they are a little nasty looking.

Good news, I was able to find the carburetor flange gasket, header gasket set, thermostat housing gasket, head gasket and exhaust flange gaskets through AutoZone - special order.

Cheers!

John

[Plymouthy Adams]

bolt with the "nut welded on top" are actually special drilled and tapped special. For one, this is where the ground cable will bolt to the block and usually placed drivers side just rear of the thermostat housing.

[greg g]

Just keep working the valves, they should free up, If not you can pull the offenders, and run a spiral wire brush up and down the guide once the valve is out and you can clean up the valve stem with som steel wool if necessary. Just be carful not to drop the 2 piece valve keepers down into the valve galley. You can also try a little heat from a propane torch, while you're whackin on em.

[RobertKB]

Sounds like you are having fun! Later heads like from a '53 are designed for the internal bypass for the waterpump and the older heads had an external bypass. Not sure you can mix and match. The heads with the internal bypass will have a small bulge at the very front of the head and the hole in the bulge would match a bulge in the block also with a hole for the internal bypass. Older engines did not have this feature. There have been lots of threads on this and if you use the search function, you should be able to find them. Good luck with the project!

[BobT-47P15]

Hi John. Sounds like you're making progress. You CAN use some other head

of similar nature.....may or may not increase anything. I'm using a 50

Dodge head on a 57 Plymouth engine that was bored .030 over. I'll

just say it works fine and has for several years. You might consider

having the head you use shaved a bit.....should increase compression

a tad. Others know more about that than I. Good luck.

[greg g]

that engine number doesn't ring a bell. Is it the stamped in number on the block above the generator. It was not uncommon to see engine swaps in these cars. As one wore out, the easiest quickest and likely cheapest repair was to pull another one from something in the wreckig yard, and plug it in. The casting dates didn't really mean a lot either as the engines and their pieces might have been sitting in a ware house for a year or two prior to being called up for the assembly line. So it was not unusual to see casting numbers fro 1950 in later cars/trucks. You should probably measure the stroke to see if its a 218 or a 230. the stroke (distance the piston travels from tdc to bdc) is 4 3/8, and a 230 is 4 5/8.

[JohnTeee]

bolt with the "nut welded on top" are actually special drilled and tapped special. For one, this is where the ground cable will bolt to the block and usually placed drivers side just rear of the thermostat housing.

Hi Tim,

Now that I know what to look for, my dad has the one you mention used for his Pos. Ground Cable.

Mine is a longer cable and runs down to one of the generator mounting bracket bolts.

Just realized, looking at that picture . . . Dad doesn't have a heater and I do!

Cheers!

John

Edited October 28, 2011 by JohnTeee
Picture editing

[JohnTeee]

Just keep working the valves, they should free up . . .

Thanks for the advice Greg. That will be today's project. Would REALLY like to get this running again. Maybe almost as much as my son. <grin>

Yes, that was the number just above the freeze plug, above the generator. I e-mailed the gentleman we got this from asking him if he could relate any history on it. Find out if he replaced the engine or knows if the previous owner did.

I'll have to check that stroke when my son comes home to give me a hand.

Cheers!

John

Edited October 26, 2011 by JohnTeee

[JohnTeee]

Sounds like you are having fun! Later heads like from a '53 are designed for the internal bypass for the waterpump and the older heads had an external bypass. Not sure you can mix and match. The heads with the internal bypass will have a small bulge at the very front of the head and the hole in the bulge would match a bulge in the block also with a hole for the internal bypass. Older engines did not have this feature. There have been lots of threads on this and if you use the search function, you should be able to find them. Good luck with the project!

You know what Robert, I kind of am. It's kind of a pull myself up by bootstraps project, but, with the help of you guys. I really appreciate it.

After doing some research on the forum, looking at the block, the two heads and my water pump, I THINK I have an answer.

The '53 head does indeed have the hump on the front and the extra hole for internal bypass. Of interest, the gasket on my old head is actually a gasket for an internal bypass head/block. Just no hole there

The block is flat all the way to the back of the water pump and you can see where the 'false passage' is from the bypass gasket. Functionally, I think the following is going to be true:

1) If my replacement gasket does NOT have the internal bypass hole in it, that passage will be blocked off when the head gets bolted down.

2) That will make the head 'almost like' the an external bypass head

3) I have a functional external bypass thermostat housing, and an external bypass water pump, so the internal bypass head should act like just like the proper year external bypass head did.

If that thinking is not correct, feel free to let me know . . . <grin>

Cheers!

John

P.S. I was going to post some pictures of the heads, gasket and block. I want to figure out how some of the guys do thumbnails to pics before I really bog this thread down with more large pictures.

[JohnTeee]

You might consider

having the head you use shaved a bit.....should increase compression

a tad. Others know more about that than I. Good luck.

Hi Bob!

It's a work in progress. <grin> I found Don Coatney's post of pages from a book showing amounts that can be shaved off heads and blocks. Will probably have a little bit done just to dress it up; maybe .035-.050? I'm waiting to get my gasket in to see if it's going to allow me to 'make it work'.

Back to the valves.

Cheers!

John

[RobertKB]

I believe you are right. It should work like an external bypass with the combination of head, block, gasket, waterpump, etc as described. If I am wrong someone will likely correct me. Good luck with the project.

[JohnTeee]

OK. I think I have the thumbnail issue. Had missed the 'Paperclip' for pictures and was just doing inline with HTML.

First Picture - the '50 and the '53 head.

Second Picture - Combustion chambers. A noticeable difference between the two, with the '53 hollowed out more, away from the spark plug.

Third Picture - #1 Cylinder on the block. You can see where the hole in the gasket was for the internal bypass.

Fourth Picture - The 'hump' on the '53.

Cheers!

John

[Merle Coggins]

It should work, except that I believe you WILL need to use a head gasket for internal bypass. I remember seeing that the other head gasket won't completey block the port in the head and it'll leak. The gasket needs the extra bump to cover the port. Use an internal bypass gasket and let it seal against the block and the rest should work like you are thinking.

Merle

[greg g]

Are those heads the same length??? One looks shorter like the difference between 25 inch Chrysler, and 23 inch Dodge...........

[JohnTeee]

It should work, except that I believe you WILL need to use a head gasket for internal bypass.

Merle

Merle, you are absolutely correct. I was thinking bass-ackwards on the gasket. I'll see what I get when I get the gasket. Since the bypass is backwardly compatible with the non-bypass, I could get lucky.

I pulled the gasket off the '50 head, laid it on the '53 head and that, takes care of that!

In other news, Greg, thanks for the tip of using the blow torch. I'm getting the valves moving - now, #2, #3 & #5 stick up, but slowly drop. The others are moving freely. PROGRESS!!! I'll probably see if I can borrow a valve spring compressor and clean them up as you suggested. I'm going to borrow Don C's idea of using grease to stick keepers in place during re-install.

Cheers!

John

[RobertKB]

Are those heads the same length??? One looks shorter like the difference between 25 inch Chrysler, and 23 inch Dodge...........

I kind of wondered that, too. In the second picture they certainly look different lengths but they look the same length in the first picture. In the first picture, the top head has the coveted P on it. P as in Plymouth. In the third picture both heads appear to have the bulge at the front and the added hole for the internal bypass. Now I am not sure what year those heads are from.

Edited October 26, 2011 by RobertKB

[JohnTeee]

The answer is "42". Oh,wait, that's the answer to everything.

The heads are the same length. They were sitting head-to-toe to each other and tilted up on the water heater outlets, causing an apparent difference in lengths.

And Greg, it looks like I'll take the 230 for 4 5/8! Just got two pistons up to TDC and measured down the two furthest down and got 4-5/8" inches. Whee Hoo! Even more not stock!

Cheers!

John

[Don Coatney]

John;

Gives me a good feeling knowing that you use the forum search function to find answers before you post questions. Below is a shot of your engine I took in 2004 but I cannot make out the engine number.

[JohnTeee]

I know how to search a forum; just don't always know the right thing to ask!

Here's my current engine (click for a larger picture):

Cheers!

John

[greg g]

looks like the number between the stars starts with a P15, Wonder if the other number was issued by the DMV due to an engine swap. What number is on your owners paperwork?

Clean that area up with a wire brush and lets get a better look, Looks like another number was overstamped with the one starting with an E.

Do you have any idea where your car was from or its history prior to when you aquired it?

[Don Coatney]

Do you have any idea where your car was from or its history prior to when you aquired it?

I think he ripped it off from his dad:D

[JohnTeee]

looks like the number between the stars starts with a P15, Wonder if the other number was issued by the DMV due to an engine swap. . . .

Do you have any idea where your car was from or its history prior to when you aquired it?

I'll check the registration and see how it compares. And I'll clean that up and get a better picture of it.

Got an e-mail back from Bob. Here's the car history.

My dad's good friend, Bob Amme bought it in 1960 or '61 in Englewood, CO. He had seen dad's '48, which was black with a white top, and wanted one like it. It was sitting in the backyard driveway of the owner. He doesn't recall the mileage. Said it ran good, his kids enjoyed riding around Denver in it and he didn't take it on the highway much. It was probably originally the Sumac Red, as the dash and firewall are that color. It was black when he purchased it and he had it repainted in a shop in Englewood. The only engine work he ever did was a tune-up or two.

In '73 he called up dad, told him he had four cars and two motorcycles and something had to go; one of the motorcycles had fallen over and creased a fender. Bob drove the car from CO to Los Angeles and dad bought it from him December 28 1973 for $800; the speedometer showed 22,500 miles. Bob said he often thinks of the Plymouth and that he should have built a bigger garage. I'm glad he didn't! <grin>

We've had it since then. In '77 we drove the '48 and the '47 across country to Missouri. My brother and I had a lot of fun with the cars. We would 'accidentally' run into each other at Sonic Drive-In, admire each others cars, each hop in the others car and drive off. A lot of cruising up and down Broadway. Took a date to the theatre in it to see Grease - fun! Drive-ins were fun too. The '47 spent some time in storage here, in '81. When my family moved and left no forwarding address in the Fall of '81, it stayed here with me. So, Mr. Don Coatney, as it is said, possession it 9/10 of the law!

Over the years we've done the usual maintenance and few other things: new windshields (got pitted in a sandstorm on the drive to CA), brakes, shocks, master cylinder, trani work, tune-ups, generator and starter rebuild, radiator repaired, u-joints, new top and interior ('86), clutch, throw-out bearings.

Cheers!

John

[greg g]

hmmmmm!! Englewood, Co and an overstamped number that begins with an "E" Coincidence, or a reassigned number for an out of state car with lost paper work???

[Plymouthy Adams]

I can explain this as good if not better than the next guy..after a good look at the number embossed on the block it is obvious this engine has a military orgin and the the E is for engine plain and simple, the next 5 digits are the cage code assigned to every military contractor and the remaining number is the build sequenece...

I only said I could explain it, did not say I would explain it correctly..

I say, its a joke son!

Edited October 28, 2011 by Tim Adams

[Niel Hoback]

Sounds good to me.