53 plymouth engines?

[wayfarer]

Hello, I'm currently rebuilding a 53 plymouth... would also love to keep it a flathead (my 218 is in pretty rough shape)... something that's reliable and I can cruise at a good highway pace with.

Also with changing the engine what transmissions would either bolt up or work with minor mods? I'd like to keep it a manual. thanks everyone,

Kerry

Kerry, since many have opined on the value of the sixes I'll add only one engine related thought. As was mentioned, there is a difference between the 23" 218 and the 25" 218 that impacts some swaps. If yours is a 25" you are good for swapping a 251 or 265 with little extra effort involved. Huge reward, but little effort. However, if you have a 23" engine then swapping can still be done but you will need to use the appropriate flywheel for the 230 and larger engines. The crankshaft flange is a bit different on the smaller (201-218) displacement engines.

You also have the option of installing a late 5- speed trans for better freeway manners. Some have mentioned the t-5, used by gm and ford, but you also have the option of the AX-5 or AX15 (Dakota and Jeep, 1986-1994). Somewhere in the search function you will find a Ranger 5-speed swap that is pretty straight forward.

If the all-Mopar theme hits home you can get some additional details here:

www.qualityengineeredcomponents.com

.

Edited September 14, 2011 by wayfarer
info from Jim Yergin that follows

[Rusty O'Toole]

it is not an issue of hopeless hunk of junk...it is an issue of bang for the buck..lots of folks here are avid rodders..the stock mill even if gold plated is not what they want..most of these folks find it hard to spend 1200 dollars on an engine that though smooth and dependable, with a slight increase in performance way less than what the money will buy on an upgrade. The battle of stock versue rod will always be there..the rodder and purist know every arguement pro and con..but it is ultimately the desire of the owner the direction of the build..if for some reason the rodding twist finds disfavor with you..the forums of the WPC, POC or AACA may be more to your liking..however I find a number of these folks coming here because for the most part these fourm have little to no activity..

You are quite right, it is a matter of bang for the buck. In most cases you can repair the old flathead six without taking it out of the car and get reasonable performance, drive around and have some fun.

Worst case, it needs a complete rebuild, less than $1000 if you do the work yourself.

Or, you can put in a second hand junkyard motor for $2000 and a lot of work. Of course you have to swap out the transmission because the old one won't fit a newer motor. Then you have to change the rear axle because the old one does not have a hand brake, it was on the old tranny you threw away. The rad needs to be changed, the car needs to be converted to 12 volts, new mounts bought or made, etc etc etc.

And when you are all done you still have a second hand, junkyard motor not a rebuilt only it cost you a lot more time and money.

Go read the agonized threads on this board by guys who listened to the glib advice to "throw away that old klunker flathead and throw in a V8". Maybe you can tell them a quick cheap way to fix their problems, I can't. And the guys who said it was so easy to do an engine swap are never around when the problems crop up.

I have done a few engine swaps when I was younger, dumber and had a lot more energy. Now if I want a V8 car, I buy a V8 car. If you like Chrysler products, and I do, all you have to do is move up to 1957 or 58 and you have a car with the best engines in the industry (small block poly or big block wedge) , the best transmission (Torqueflite) and the best suspension (torsion bar).

You can swap in your choice of small block or big block Chrysler engines with minimal trouble. So what is the use of messing up an older model?

[Plymouthy Adams]

plenty of cheap fixes if you know what you are doing..for those who ask sometimes no matter the amount of directions given..the time, tools, space and experience etc is still beyond their good intentions to get the job done..again however it is their project and if they succeed or fail is not on account of what we say or do, recommend or relate by sweat and blood, but what they do themselves be it their work or ckeck writing skills..often the check writer is pretty much dependent upon the builder familarity and his "pet driveline" I have both stock and modified..the merit of the car determines the manner of the beast..As for the 2000 dollar junkyard engine..I am glad I do not live in your area if it costs that much for a decent donor vehicle..

[Rusty O'Toole]

It costs that much for parts for the total job. If you have done an engine swap you know the cost of the engine is only a down payment on the job. You also know that when you have the engine and trans all mounted in place and looking practically finished, you are about half way there.

Of course I am talking parts and materials only. If you have to pay someone to do the work it is going to cost a lot more.

On the other hand you can do a ring and valve job on a flathead 6 without taking it out of the frame for under $500. That is all most of them need, and a lot of them only need a tuneup.

For a beginner with some mechanical aptitude and a few hundred bucks worth of tools, an overhaul or rebuild of a flathead six is about within his reach. Anything more ambitious risks disappointment and heartache and another old car gone to the junkyard.

Edited September 12, 2011 by Rusty O'Toole

[Jim Yergin]

However, if you have a 23" engine then swapping can still be done but you will need to use a bell housing from a 230 (or larger) on the larger engine. The crankshaft flange is a bit different on the smaller displacement engines and the bell housing was made accordingly.

Are you sure about that? I am using the bell housing from my 201 with the 230 I installed in my 1941 P12. I believe the difference in the crankshafy flange is addressed in the flywheel offset, not the bell housing.

Jim Yergin

[Don Coatney]

Are you sure about that? I am using the bell housing from my 201 with the 230 I installed in my 1941 P12. I believe the difference in the crankshafy flange is addressed in the flywheel offset, not the bell housing.

Jim Yergin

I agree with Jim. The only bellhousing change is associated with fluid drive verses non fluid drive.

[Frank Elder]

Go back and read the original question.

"I would like to keep it mopar and would also love to keep it a flathead (my 218 is in pretty rough shape) but I've been told they are pretty gutless. what would you all suggest for an engine. as a general idea I'm not looking for a tire burner just something that's reliable and I can cruise at a good highway pace with. "

My answer was keep the original engine and rebuild it. Don't listen to whoever told you they are gutless. A flathead 6 in good condition will do fine.

As an addition to the above answer I also told him that if he has a Canadian made Plymouth (the questioner is from Canada) the bigger DeSoto or Chrysler 6 will bolt right in. So if the original 218 is shot' date=' has the rod sticking thru the block etc, he can upgrade to a more powerful 6 very easily.

All my answers were based on the original question.[/quote']

I did read the original question, and was amazed how you answered...that is why I asked my question.....He will be better off with the original motor, once again how do you know this?

[Rusty O'Toole]

I did read the original question, and was amazed how you answered...that is why I asked my question.....He will be better off with the original motor, once again how do you know this?

Because I am smart.

[Rusty O'Toole]

OK let's be serious! It's only a suggestion guys! I am not going to drive over to anyone's garage and hold a gun to their head!

I merely wanted to reassure the questioner, that his original flathead motor is plenty capable as a daily driver, provided it is in good shape. After all that is what he asked. He specifically said he wants to keep the original motor IF it is capable of keeping up with traffic in normal driving, which it is.

There are lots of guys who have proven the old flathead is a good motor and is still capable of turning in good service.

[Eneto-55]

...you can do a ring and valve job on a flathead 6 without taking it out of the frame ....

I remember my dad doing that, just in the front yard. (He didn't have a garage, or even an engine lift, so that was the way he did it - crawling under it for access to the bottom end, and in on top of the engine to access the top end.)

It must have been a bit of a pistol, but that pickup (1953 Dodge 3 window) ran for many years after that.

[hkestes41]

OK let's be serious! It's only a suggestion guys! I am not going to drive over to anyone's garage and hold a gun to their head!

I merely wanted to reassure the questioner' date=' that his original flathead motor is plenty capable as a daily driver, provided it is in good shape. After all that is what he asked. He specifically said he wants to keep the original motor IF it is capable of keeping up with traffic in normal driving, which it is.

There are lots of guys who have proven the old flathead is a good motor and is still capable of turning in good service.[/quote']

I will agree with you to a point. Yes the 218 is capable of keeping up with traffic once it gets up to speed. Used the one in my 48 for a couple years as my daily until the #1 intake valve decided to lose its head. Now I have a 230 which is even better.

However, I can tell you that I could have gone with a small block / automatic for a lot less cash than I have in the 230 / R10 OD I'm currently running. Butch's Fun Stuff has Motor/Trans mounts for the small block Mopar / Automatic for under $300. Quick search of Craiglist turned up a rebuilt 318 (25K miles) and automatic package for $550. An 8 3/4 from a 70 Polara for $225. Car is already 12 Volt with a new Painless harness so this is not an issue. So, the 318 / auto and associated parts comes in at $1075 if I paid their asking price and did not haggle. That is still less than the total cost of the parts on my 230 and would have MUCH better performance.

My first 48 coupe had a 383 / 727 that ran like a scalded cat. This time around I decided to stick with the flathead. Different reasons and different outcomes neither right or wrong just what I chose to do at the time. I knew going in that the flathead would be more expensive that going to the V8/Automatic but it is what I wanted this time around and I am very happy with the decision.

Now had I gone totally stock with the flatty then yes the flatty rebuild would likely been less expensive / less work than the V8/Auto. It all just depends on what someone wants and is capabale of. That is the thing about this hobby, there is no right or wrong just what you want and can afford.

[wayfarer]

Are you sure about that? I am using the bell housing from my 201 with the 230 I installed in my 1941 P12. I believe the difference in the crankshafy flange is addressed in the flywheel offset, not the bell housing.

Jim Yergin

You are probably correct...I don't have any bells to measure but I do have a pile of flywheels. Interesting that, apparently, I have no 208-218 'wheels in the lot as all of them have the same offset. Somehow I have managed to avoid collecting the Plymouth pieces...

[Andydodge]

I stuck a 318 Poly/auto in my 1940 Dodge in 1973, had to use a rack & pinion for steering due to clearances but its still going fine. The 1941 Plymouth tho' will get the 230 thats still on the engine stand with a T5......the Dodge runs 4 wheel discs as will the Plymouth eventually........as for what is best, it depends entirely on the person who owns the car, I like my cars with a bit of get up & go, so thats how I build them.........we each have our own poison, build YOUR car how you want it, get ideas, info & advice and do it to suit yourself...........regards from Oz...andyd.

[55 Fargo]

Okay, decided to shoot a very short You Tube video of my car, which is a 1947 Chrysler Royal Club Coupe, weighing 3600 lbs, so more than a Plym or Dodge.

The engine is an old unrebuilt engine from a 1951 Canadian Dodge, which is a 25 inch 218, 3 spd standard trans,dry clutch, and 3.73 rearend, tires are radials P205 75 15s.

This engine runs very well yet, here I am cruising on the highway. Please excuse the audio, man my voice sounds awful, not sure what happened, once I uploaded the video.

This is not to state pro or con, on keeping a flathead 6, or upgrading to a modern V8 , it is what my experience is with my car.

I have a 251, that I want to use in this car eventually, whcih will hopefully give me a 125-135 hp, rather than my 98 hp now.......enjoy

Edited September 14, 2011 by Rockwood

[53cranny]

This is all really great info, I took a look at the engine in detail yesterday and it looks to be pretty solid so I think I'm going to keep it! I don't make whole lot of money at the moment but I've got time on my side!

This may seem a little slow of me but what I'm getting is that since I have a 25" 218, I can't do an easy swap with say, a 230? and that I should be looking at the 251 and 265 replacement parts on sites such as vintagepowerwagons (except for the 3 3/8" pistons unless I bore it out). does that also mean when I look on a site like edgy's the dual exhaust headers for the 218/230's won't fit my 218 because it's a long block? if so that kind of limits me to performance and dress up parts except for the few 251 stuff. I could be completely wrong though and I may not be looking at the right sites but those seem to be the ones I found so far and was told to take a look at. Also looking at more highway friendly rear end gears, what should I be looking for or did I just open up a whole new can o' worms??

thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone!

[55 Fargo]

Okay Kerry, Edgy is just 1 of a few who can help you with flathead hi-perf parts, try Georg Asche, you have to phone George no email.

Then there is Moose on this site he custom makes headers and intakes for flat head 6 engines.

So here is the scoop, being we have Canuck 218s, which has an 8 bolt crank the the same as the 228,251 etc, the USA boys don't have this option as the 218/230 are shorter, and the 218 has a 4 bolt crank in USA only.

Now you can bolt any of the following to your bell housing, all Canadian built 25 inch flat head 6s made by Chrysler of Canada, which would be 218,228,237,251 and 265s.

So whichever you use, you can shave the head, deck block to raise compression, have cam ground a little more wild, add dual exhaust, and dual carbs or a 2 bbl holley webber, and that should give you some real boost.

Differentials, stock Mopars that would fit, would be a 3.73 or 3.54 from rearends with 10 spline axles, you simply remove the pumpkin from you current diff, and replace with desired pumpkin.

I would check and see what you have, it could be a 3.73, 3.90 or 4.11.

Next you also could replace the 3 spd standard trans with a Borg and Warner R10 3 spd overdrive trans from an early 50s Mopar, this is a direct bolt in, and no issues with driveshaft length, some wiring would be necessary.

So there you have it, BTW did you watch the You Tube video, my car has a tired Canadian 218 under the hood but runs well and basically keeps up with traffic..

[Rusty O'Toole]

This is all really great info, I took a look at the engine in detail yesterday and it looks to be pretty solid so I think I'm going to keep it! I don't make whole lot of money at the moment but I've got time on my side!

This may seem a little slow of me but what I'm getting is that since I have a 25" 218, I can't do an easy swap with say, a 230? and that I should be looking at the 251 and 265 replacement parts on sites such as vintagepowerwagons (except for the 3 3/8" pistons unless I bore it out). does that also mean when I look on a site like edgy's the dual exhaust headers for the 218/230's won't fit my 218 because it's a long block? if so that kind of limits me to performance and dress up parts except for the few 251 stuff. I could be completely wrong though and I may not be looking at the right sites but those seem to be the ones I found so far and was told to take a look at. Also looking at more highway friendly rear end gears, what should I be looking for or did I just open up a whole new can o' worms??

thanks for all the help and suggestions everyone!

Basically the Chrysler Corporation of Detroit made 2 flathead sixes, a small one and a big one.

Chrysler Canada, being on a budget, only got 1 engine. They got the larger of the 2.

This engine was first made in Canada in 1938 and was used in all kinds of Plymouth, Dodge, DeSoto, Chrysler, Dodge truck, and industrial apps.

So, you could put any of those in your car. They all fit.

American made Plymouth and Dodge, not so lucky.

The engines look practically identical. One way to tell for sure, is to measure them. The length of the head will be either 23 or 25 inches

The one made in Canada is the 25" long job.

Common versions of this engine are 218, 228,237,251, and 265 cu in.

Common cylinder bore, 3 3/8 or 3 7/16

Common stroke, 4 1/16, 4 1/4, 4 1/2, 4 3/4.

Any block can be bored to take 3 7/16 or larger piston. Any block will take any crankshaft. When swapping crankshafts you need to use the matching rods that go with it. Rods vary in length according to crankshaft stroke.

The 4 3/4 stroke cranks are rather rare. They were only used in the last 2 years of Chrysler and DeSoto 6 production. In the US, only in Chrysler.

They were also used in some truck and industrial apps up to 1968.

If you see one with the oil pan off you can tell at once because the rod bolts have no heads. They had to make a special rod bolt to clear the pan rail, the crankshaft throw was right at the limit of clearance.

When you look at Edgy's site he is careful to distinguish between the 217/230 block and the 237/251/265 block. The 251 block is the one used in Canada for all cars and trucks. In Canada it was also made as a small bore 218/228 for Plymouth and Dodge.

If you are on a budget look at Vintage Power Wagons NOS pistons for $65 a set. If you bore your block to 3 7/16 a stock size 251 piston will fit, these are usually easy to get because they are not in demand, most rebuilds demand oversize pistons not stock size, so they tend to be cheaper and easier to get.

So yes, you are limited to 251 stuff. It might be possible to put in a 230 but why bother?

Don't worry about rear gears at this stage of the game. Once you get the car on the road you will probably find the original gears are fine. If not come back and we will discuss further.

Also do not get carried away on the hop up stuff. Do a straight rebuild or overhaul. I recommend you do not even bore the cylinders unless they are worn, damaged or rusty. If pistons and cylinders are in good shape hone with a bottle brush hone and put on new rings. Check valves and grind or replace as necessary. Check crankshaft and replace bearings if necessary. Check timing chain oil pump etc.

It may be possible to overhaul your engine for $500 in parts including gaskets, new oil and antifreeze.

Later on if you get ambitious it is not hard to change intake, exhaust, even the cam can be changed if you take out the rad first. So build it mild first and see how you like it, chances are it will have all the pep you need.

[Rusty O'Toole]

53 Cranny you do not state what kind of shape your engine is in right now.

If it is in one piece, complete, and turns over 9 chances out of 10 you can have it eating out of your hand in a few hours.

If the carb, distributor, or head is off it could be a problem but still possible to fix.

If the block is cracked due to freezing, or the rod is sticking out of the block it could be time to look for a new engine. On the other hand, small cracks are not uncommon and can be fixed. Look along the left side of the block about half way between the head and pan, in other words along the bottom of the water jacket near the back of the block, that is where they usually crack. A small crack no big deal, if it is cracked from one end to the other it is a big deal.

So how about some info on condition or possibly even pictures? Your motor may be better than you think.

[55 Fargo]

Here are 3 pics of my spare engine, wlthough it was fairly clean, it had 4 stuck valves, all are free now, but this engine is still stuck, so not sure if it is a ring or something else.

I plan to very shortly dismantle and discover.

I am not trying to hi-jack the thread, just posting what a flathead that wa sitting for many years exposed to the elements and the results.

I plan to save this engine,if I can, it will be a spare engine ready to go into my coupe....

[Greenbomb]

Another $.02 worth: I wanted some oomph so was looking at mid '60's V-8 mustangs when i ran across a '50 Plymouth coupe. Talk about doing a 180!! I bought the Plymouth and, from a practical standpoint, it was probably not a "wise" choice. I paid $2600 for the car and just put $2800 into the engine, which is brand new top to bottom, NOT including all the stuff that bolts to the engine. Also bought a USED O/D trans for $600. There's a bunch more money in it that I can't even think of at this time, but the point is that I could have taken that money and bought a lot more $#!t 'n git all ready to drive. I'd a been on the road 2 years ago, instead of stumbling over a bunch of parts in the shop. BUT, I didn't want to do it that way. The ol' Plymouth just "warms my heart", so to speak in a way that a Mustang can't. It's sorta like owning a Harley- if ya gotta ask, you don't understand. Nothing else will feel the same as the old flathead 6 as you cruise .

I just happened to notice my post #426 was in defense of the ol' "boat anchor" motor. How ironic is that?

Edited September 15, 2011 by Greenbomb
Irony

[53cranny]

Don't worry about rear gears at this stage of the game. Once you get the car on the road you will probably find the original gears are fine. If not come back and we will discuss further.

Also do not get carried away on the hop up stuff. Do a straight rebuild or overhaul. I recommend you do not even bore the cylinders unless they are worn' date=' damaged or rusty. If pistons and cylinders are in good shape hone with a bottle brush hone and put on new rings. Check valves and grind or replace as necessary. Check crankshaft and replace bearings if necessary. Check timing chain oil pump etc.

It may be possible to overhaul your engine for $500 in parts including gaskets, new oil and antifreeze.

Later on if you get ambitious it is not hard to change intake, exhaust, even the cam can be changed if you take out the rad first. So build it mild first and see how you like it, chances are it will have all the pep you need.[/quote']

Reading this took a load off my mind, just what I wanted to hear! I was running over having to buy a new engine, trans, motor mounts, everything! but this and a good phone call with my dad and I'm getting a good plan as to what I'm going to do, keep it basically stock and then go from there. I want it to be a taildragger so I'm not planning on going very fast heh hopefully taildragger/kustoms are acceptable 'round these parts.

I just got a fancy new phone and plan on taking some pictures with it next time I get to the shop. If your block is in "fairly clean" shape then mine is a catastrophe, the engine is stuck, all the pistons, I'm going to clean them out and strip the block down next time I get over there and do the tranny/acetone mix and see where that gets me. fingers crossed!

thanks again everyone, pics are to come soon

[Rusty O'Toole]

If an engine is stuck it could be a good sign. An old worn out engine has lots of room for rust and does not get stuck easy.

Rockwood your engine looks pretty good. The valves do not look burned, the cylinders do not look worn. How are the pistons, hope they are just dirty not damaged.

Of course it is impossible to tell for sure just from pictures. If the valve seats are not cracked, you should be able to put it together with new gaskets, rings and grind the valves and have a good running motor.

[55 Fargo]

If an engine is stuck it could be a good sign. An old worn out engine has lots of room for rust and does not get stuck easy.

Rockwood your engine looks pretty good. The valves do not look burned' date=' the cylinders do not look worn. How are the pistons, hope they are just dirty not damaged.

Of course it is impossible to tell for sure just from pictures. If the valve seats are not cracked, you should be able to put it together with new gaskets, rings and grind the valves and have a good running motor.[/quote']

Rusty, had a few stuck valves:eek:, got them free, soaking cyls for a while, pistons just look dirty, valve seats are not cracked, no top cyl ridge.

But this engine is still stuck, just tried with a huge 3/4 inch drive breaker bar and 1 13/16 socket, on pulley nut, and no go.

I wonder what is seized, this engine did not get any water in the crank case, as the oil was clean, but dark, not sure if a ring is holding, or if a bearing is seized.

I want to clean up this engine, and if I can get by on new rings and a valve grind, maybe bearings, I would be quite happy, I would still have head shaved, clean up real well, and paint engine etc.....Thanx fred

[james curl]

Make sure that none of your valves or lifters are stuck. The pistons might be free, pull the timing chain and see if you can turn the cam by hand, if not then the valves or lifters are stuck. Now you can isolate the crank, pistons and rods from the valve mechanism to determine what the culprit is.

[55 Fargo]

Make sure that none of your valves or lifters are stuck. The pistons might be free, pull the timing chain and see if you can turn the cam by hand, if not then the valves or lifters are stuck. Now you can isolate the crank, pistons and rods from the valve mechanism to determine what the culprit is.

Thanx James the valves all move up and down now, the lifter spin freely, so, I can rule that out, gonna pull timing chain cover and remove chain, that will tell me some more.....