An Informational Poll

[Chester Brzostowski]

I am very curious to find out how many members of this forum are members of the Plymouth Owners Club. If you are not a member and have a particular reason for not joining the POC please leave a brief comment as to why you have no interest in joining the POC.

Thanks, Chet...

PS this is the first time I have tried to start a Poll so I hope I did this correctly.???

Please take the time to post a vote, a comment is optional.

[Allan Faust]

I am very curious to find out how many members of this forum are members of the Plymouth Owners Club. If you are not a member and have a particular reason for not joining the POC please leave a brief comment as to why you have no interest in joining the POC.

Thanks, Chet...

PS this is the first time I have tried to start a Poll so I hope I did this correctly.???

Chet,

I'm not, and probably the only reason why is because I'd be so far away from any members that I'd be completely by myself.... however, because of the plymouth bulletin, I haven't ruled it out.... another thing, come to think about it is the "purism" of the POC that I've heard about, mainly on this board... and since I'm modifying mine, I definitely ain't a purist....

Allan

[Dennis Hemingway]

Chet. I am not a member of the POC as I was once told by the Membership Chairman "If it's not stock we don't want you". So I didn't join.

Dennis

[Norm's Coupe]

Chet,

I'm a former member of the national POC. Think I was a member for about 3 years from about 95 through 98.

I dropped out of the POC primarily due to the Purist nature of the club. Also, I really don't care for the way the POC (and other national clubs) are set up. I would probably join the local group, however you can't do that without being a member of the national. The national club really isn't going to do that much for the money, except send me a magazine every two months. (By the way, when I was a member that magazine was always about a month or more late). The magazine really didn't give any technical advice when I was a member, and they certainly wasn't going to come over an visit me to help on the car. Even around here, the members are so spread out, it's hard for them to help one another. Looking at the website for the local club in Wisconsin, their meetings are all spread out from one side of the state to the other. I just don't feel like driving 100 to 150 miles to attend a monthly car club meeting.

All that said, again the primary reason is the Purist nature of the bylaws. I don't care about judging contest. That's just an ego trip as far as I'm concerned. I'm rebuilding my car the way I want it. That said, I feel that if I or anyone else was into modifying or mild custom work on their car, it should still have a place in the club it belongs to, and be eligible to compete in the judging if the owner wanted to. Can't do that in the POC.

Nothing personal against the POC, it's just not for me. They need to open up their thinking, that's all.

I was also told the same thing as Dennis was told.

[Young Ed]

Chet I'm in the tall pines region of the club. I enjoy meeting with all the other guys. We too are spread out over the whole state. Its a good reason to get out and drive the old cars! Remember that's what they are for.

[JohnS48plm]

I've been a POC member since 1985 when I had my 1933 PD coupe. I have met a lot of nice people in the club. I have had guys help me find parts and even send me parts and refuse to take any money for them. I have been to several national meets but don't get the car judged. I go on the tours and my car has radials, overdrive,modern driveshaft,incorrect interior, and will have dual carbs when I get my new motor done. John

[RobertKB]

I was a member for one year in 2005. Although the magazine was beautifully done, it did not appeal to me with enough technical info and I love to read how cars were restored and there weren't many of those either. Nearest local club to me is actually quite close (120 miles) but I would never get to its events. I appreciate the fact that they like to keep cars stock but they seem to be a bit anal about how stock. Good club and I may rejoin one day but I really like the local antique car club I belong to and I do lots of tours and events with them.

[Chester Brzostowski]

Dear All,

This is the type of information I am looking for. When you review this forum with its 435 active members I was wondering how many of these 435 have been turned away from a club which for all intents and purposes represents Plymouth Owners. Does it represent Plymouth owners? I don’t know But I am hoping to find out. After all this Forum Membership only represents 3 years of Plymouth production. What about the other years.??? Needles to say I think this is a very good representative sample. 435 Plymouth Owners frequent this web site. I believe you have a voice that should be heard.

I am a member of the POC and also a member of the Mid-Atlantic Regional. I believe that there is another segment of Plymouth society that loves to drive their cars and also loves to improve them. I think a silent number of active members of the POC feel the same way. The AACA has a Drivers Class and I believe the POC should consider this also. Please keep the comments coming.

I am very curious about what the general feeling of this forum is.

Chet…

[Normspeed]

Chet, the nicest part of the P15-D24 forum is the fact that it doesn't place anyone into a bracket. There are a lot of members here who have other stuff like my P24 but as long as it's a flathead six, it's welcome. The POC seems a little more restrictive although the CA group welcomes everyone. I don't join because...well...I'm not good with commitments...ask any of my ex-wives

[RobertKB]

Actually Chet, the P15-D24 forum technically represents only three years of Plymouth but does as well for Dodges. In reality it represents forum members with vehicles from 1929 (yours) up through certainly the late 50's or even 60's. There are also forum members with Chryslers and Desotos as well. I believe this forum appeals mainly to anyone who loves the old Mopars flatheads no matter from what year. Look at Tim and Bob the Zen Masters - they live and breathe Vintage Mopar, not just Plymouths. I think the POC is missing out on a lot of great members who are put off by their over zealous "stock" Plymouths. Maybe a drivers' class in the POC would be a good idea and help extend the life of the POC and increase membership.

[Johnny S]

I've been a member for about 4 or 5 years. I enjoy the publication and that's the primary reason I joined. It helps me learn some history and to keep up with current events. I've been a member of the local Rocky Mountain Region but don't find that they do much that interests me so I don't participate. There is virtually no technical talk at all. Mostly eating and visiting tourist-type venues. I do find quite a few Plymouth lovers in the area but most of them are free-lance types and not members of any club.

I will stay a POC member because I think a Plymouth lover should at least keep in touch with that aspect of the hobby and in theory they are THE club who does that. Plus I'm of the opinion that if one wants to complain loudly at any point in time they should be part of the group they are complaining about. My assumption is that complaining by members has more meaning than complaining by non-members.

I am disappointed that their P17-P18 advisor doesn't have any computer access. At least he doesn't have any listed. That kind of defeats the purpose of having an advisor if you can't contact them in the easiest way(s) possible. Telephone calls work for some things but not all. On this forum good advisors are almost always available and willing to share ideas. I think that is what makes forum like this so popular. Friendly people who know stuff and are willing (sometimes above and beyond the call) to help just about anyone.

Had breakfast this morning with a fellow who owns a 1949 Woodie right here in town and he didn't have a clue that P15-D24 or POC or most any of the on-line groups existed. He does now. There are quite a few like him I believe. He told me of a 1949 Plymouth convertible in town that just pretty much sits in the garage. I'd like to solve that problem. I do see some of the POC regions doing more and being more progressive and that impresses me. I think the focus on factory stock is over done to the detriment of the hobby. I like the original cars a lot and plan to work to keep one original and running but I also like to modify a car a little to make it more driveable. And, wearing either hat, I'm the same guy!! But, you don't get that feeling on very many of the forums. This one is great and I've always enjoyed Charlie Akers 49-50Plymouth forum. I also make sure to post on the 49Plymouth forum just to keep it a little active. I do post on the POC site on occasion and have received some good feedback but I also see quite a few posts that take a long time to get answered if at all.

My 3.5 cents.

[eric wissing]

This is as close as I have been to belonging to a club. I like this forum, very casual, a lot of great advice, and some very helpful people. Some clubs seem to be cliquish, probably natural. I regularly buy the English magazine "Classic & Sportscar". It has a wide range of cars and they follow people with their cars as they drive and rebuild them. Not just top dollar cars but cars "average joes" can afford. I like the attitude they have. Robin from the UK could probably expand on this. I wonder if their clubs are like this. Just a straying thought. eric

[bob_amos]

Well, I am a member of the POC as well as a founding member of California's Golden State Region. We at the region are not as strict as the national club. With us a modified car is acceptable. You don't even need a car to join us. Hell, you don't even have to like Plymouths. (But how could anyone NOT like a Plymouth, I ask?) Seriously though, we have the same distaste for the strictness of the national club. While we understand their need for totally stock vehicles, a member shouldn't be excluded just because his tastes are different. As long as that member respects the clubs original reason for being should be enough. The national does have the absolute best magazine though. That in itself is reason enough to be a member.

[Don Coatney]

Not a POC member. I do not know of any "local" chapters. I do not have a "factory" original car and would be excluded from any judging not that collecting trophies is my goal. It is my opinion that most trophies are bought (the person who spends the most money wins) and not earned (by the person who actually does the work). I have been slandered on the POC forum interestingly by a POC forum guru who has a car more severely modified than my car but he spent the big bucks to have it built as opposed to my shade tree engineering. I rarely visit the POC forum anymore. The liberal attitude that this forum (are we a club?) promotes is much more to my liking. The daily postings made to this forum are in my opinion much better than any clubs by-monthly newsletter. I have probably had more face to face meetings with members of this forum than most POC members have had with other POC members.

[Brendan D25]

Chester, I voted no in the poll and then it hit me again, my Plymouth is a Dodge so I probably would not be accepted in the POC anyway. I hope this forum stays the way it is, good helpful people and good info. Happy Easter to all. Brendan.

[Dennis Hemingway]

Don-We must be a club that's what my licence topper says.

Bob Amos-I was at the first meeting at Tony's house. So I know the California's Golden State Region is not as strict as the national club, but you still have to join the national to join.

Dennis:cool:

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have no intentions of restoring one of these cars..or having any period correct, therefore the POC and I have no common ground. HOwever I do applaud their mission.

[Don Coatney]

Dennis;

If we are indeed a club I have a couple of thoughts on that. When I renewed the insurance for my Plymouth one of the questions on the renewal form was "are you a member of any club?" I believe there is a discount on insurance rates for club membership. Would the group meeting held at Tim Adams stable in Georgia be a club function? Would the meeting with this second pictured crew at a Manassas, Virginia car show be considered a club function? I could list several more potential club functions. Should we formalize?

[Norm's Coupe]

Chet,

Just a little added note to my previous post.

I have met and know several POC members in the Wisconsin and Northern Illinois region. Even met Tony C and his wife Karen from California a few years ago, who is also a member of the POC. All of these people were also interested in custom and/or hot rodding too. I think anyone really into old cars like both the originals and the street rod/customs and hot rods. As bob amos pointed out, they even have members in their local POC club into modifying the old Plymouth's. So, they have both the Purist people and the customs because they evidently voted on this as a club and put that into effect.

Now, we go over to the national POC club. Several years ago, Dennis and I were both told the same thing by the same person, at the same time, we were not welcome if our cars were not original. I don't know about Dennis, but I also received an email at the time from that person. In that email the person gave me as one lame excuse that the reason they could not accept modified cars into the POC was because it would make them lose their Non-Profit status with the IRS. I didn't go along with that excuse either. After all there are a lot of Non-Profit clubs in this country, about any kind of hobby you can shake a stick at. Preservation of a specific historic item does not qualify a club for Non-Profit status. What does qualify a club for that status is, they donate all profits to charity after deducting their operating expenses. So, that excuse just doesn't hold water.

Based on past experience, if you or anyone else brings up this subject you will be pounced upon just like Dennis and I were (and Don Coatney evidently was). That just isn't right in a club. A club should be run by it's members, not a board of dictators. The people are the ones who really make up a club and should have a right to bring these things up, and have them put to a vote by the club as a whole. Again, based on past experience, I don't think that's going to happen at the POC until different people are running it. Granted none of us were a member of the POC at the time. However, after being pounced on like this, you have to ask; "Why should we become a member of that club?"

For the record, I have been directly involved in Non-Profit groups in the past. When my kids were young, I was a involved as one of the leaders of our local Cub Scout group. That is also Non Profit. Each year we had to make sure all money was spent by the end of the tax year. We were only allowed to keep a very small amount to carry over into the following year, otherwise we would lose our Non Profit status. Because we had a large group and the kids (and parents) were really active they did extremely well on their money drives (selling candy, etc) that we always had a lot of money left over. I guess we could have given the extra money to the national scout office to accomplish that. However, instead we bought baseball equipment for the troop, furnished free soda at each ball game during the year for over 100 kids, bought real nice trophies for each team that played ball (everyone got a trophy including the bottom ranked team). As awards for other things like the top sellers of the candy, etc., we gave away bikes and nice radios, etc. to about the top five. The POC could do similar things to unload extra money if they saw that they were going to have too much money left over. So again, the historic thing just doesn't hold water. What does hold water is getting rid of all profits through charities and operation cost to maintain a Non-Profit status.

I was also later involved in the leadership of the local 4H club with the kids, and we did the same things there.

[Young Ed]

I think you guys are taking what happened on the POC forum and applying it to the rest of the club. I know the CA guys don't mind some mods and really us MN guys don't either. Granted I was kinda born into the region but I joined and started going to all the events before I even had a plymouth. None of them minded seeing my dodge pickup. Even with its radial tires haha.

Also FWIW there have been a few moderators of the POC forum come and gone.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Radial tires, safety glass and seat belts are all items recognized by the POC as safety devices and thus does not add nor take away from the originality of the car. I read their creed, just as late as last week while researching an item of interest and remember these items.

[Norm's Coupe]

Dennis;

If we are indeed a club I have a couple of thoughts on that. When I renewed the insurance for my Plymouth one of the questions on the renewal form was "are you a member of any club?" I believe there is a discount on insurance rates for club membership. Would the group meeting held at Tim Adams stable in Georgia be a club function? Would the meeting with this second pictured crew at a Manassas, Virginia car show be considered a club function? I could list several more potential club functions. Should we formalize?

Don, I brought this up several years ago and it didn't seem to go very far. I even went so far as having license plate toppers made up special. The design of the plate topper was voted on at the time. It's not a cheap topper, they were made out of cast aluminum and came already painted. If you go down the thread and look at the picture Dennis Hemingway put up, he has the topper on the car. I think about 20 or 30 people have those. One of those people was Nelson. At the time, I also wrote to Street Rodder magazine about us forming a club, and gave this site for them to look at. The letter was published and it did draw a lot of new people to the forum. I also got some calls (including long distant calls) from people without internet wanting to join, even though in the letter I said it was internet based. So, there is interest out there for formalizing a club.

[Joel Torres]

Chet, the nicest part of the P15-D24 forum is the fact that it doesn't place anyone into a bracket. (

100% how i feel we are all just car crazy

i love this forum and all the help i have received directly and indirectly for the past 6 or more years damn has it been that long

i dont join any clubs cause i have way too much to worry about and no cash to spread on the table

as far as im conserned P15-D24 forum is my car club

[Roadkingcoupe]

"THE OFFICIAL POLICY OF THE PLYMOUTH OWNERS CLUB, INC. IS TO PROMOTE THE CORRECT AND AUTHENTIC RESTORATION OF THE PLYMOUTH BRAND AND TO DISCOURAGE ANY ACTIVITIES, IDEAS OR PHILOSOPHIES CONTRARY TO THESE AIMS." The views expressed and information exchanged on this website are not necessarily the official position of the Plymouth Owners Club, Inc. The Plymouth Owners Club reserves the right to remove any material that members find offensive, discussion members who post offensive material may be denied use of the board. All information exchanged on this forum is assumed at the readers own risk and the Plymouth Owners Club, Inc., its officers, directors and members are not liabile in any manner for the accuracy of information exchanged on this bulletin board.

I do not understand

I understand

"Discourage any activities".............????????????

Even though my cars are stock the statement and lack of universal acceptance still erks me to this day. I believe that the POC is shooting itself in the foot by NOT embracing many of the individuals on this forum. Just my 2 cents.

[Norm's Coupe]

I think you guys are taking what happened on the POC forum and applying it to the rest of the club. I know the CA guys don't mind some mods and really us MN guys don't either. Granted I was kinda born into the region but I joined and started going to all the events before I even had a plymouth. None of them minded seeing my dodge pickup. Even with its radial tires haha.

Also FWIW there have been a few moderators of the POC forum come and gone.

Ed,

Don't want to get started downing the POC and didn't mean too. However, the person who came down on Dennis and I is also one of the long time people high up on the national club board, not just a forum moderator. I will agree the general membership people have different opinions than the national board members. I've had the same experience as you with local people. I guess the whole point is as I mentioned before. If you pay dues to be a member of a Plymouth Club and you also own one of those, the car should not be excluded from competing in shows, if that person wants to enter it. Are you aware that back in the late 90's a member drove his old Plymouth Street rod to a national show. He had no intention of entering it for judging. However, other members talked him into entering the judging, so he finally did. Then the judges picked his car for first place in one category. That evidently upset some of the old timers of the club and they started complaining about the car not being original, so should not have been awarded the trophy. So...........after much complaining, the award was withdrawn by the club and given to someone else. There was even an article in the POC Bulletin about it. Think it happened about 1998 if you still have old issues. That's just not right, especially after he was invited to join in on having the car judged. That's when I said enough and did not renew my membership after that. I don't mind paying dues to the local club when they recognize modified cars as well as originals. However, I can't see paying dues to a national club to do that when the national club doesn't. It doesn't make sense to support something you don't agree with, just to be a member of a local group.