Losing oil pressure and metal flake in oil

[Alshere59]

Well the title says it all. Some background first. I went for a drive and noticed the oil pressure dropping on the highway. I was doing about 60 mph for 15 minutes or so I have an OD with 3.54 gears. Pressure started out at 45 to 50 and dropped to about 25 with the temperature staying normal I never have had an issue with it overheating.

I got it home and pulled the filter and sucked the oil out. Small flakes of bearing in the bottom of the filter housing. Also I have two strong magnets set on the intake of the oil filter housing and have very fine metal filings stuck on those. I attached a picture of the metal filing on the magnet.

Anyway the engine has about 6K on a rebuild and the oil was changed at 500, 1000 and 2000 and every 3000 since. Straight 30 weight castrol and new filter each time.

Now for my questions. The shop that did the rebuild wants me to bring in a main and connecting rod bearing is there any that are more likely to fail than another? Any ideas why the metal filings as they are extremely fine? I put the in initially as I was concerned with left over dust from cylinder honing etc and just left them in.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Alshere59

[Don Coatney]

Was the 45-50 reading at road speed and the 25 at idle?

[1941Rick]

The filings on the magnets would not be from main or rod bearings...you might have an oil pump failing.....takes steel on steel to make fine filings like that....

[james curl]

Did you wash the cylinders with hot water and soap until a white towel came out white when you dried your cylinders? If not then the fine fillings could be the residue from the boring and honing that was not removed before reassembly. They say that cleanness is next to Godliness.

[Alshere59]

Was the 45-50 reading at road speed and the 25 at idle?

45 50 was at the start of the trip on the highway dropped to 25 at highway speeds no tach so rpm is??

you might have an oil pump failing.....takes steel on steel to make fine filings like that....

The fine filings I have to agree is not a bearing issue, however could it have caused my shiny metal flakes.

snip "cleanness is next to Godliness."

I had someone do the rebuild that has a very good reputation.

Called him and he wants to see the bearings as stated. The mains was what I was curious on do any show more wear on these engines on average? The rods I will work my way down 1-6 to see any damage.

Will be pulling bearings and oil pump. Either way I think the engine is coming apart for cleaning and new bearings. Was hoping for some ideas on the filings as the rebuilder has a good reputation.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Alshere59

[Alshere59]

Haven't posted in a while but here is an update.

Put in a new spring in the oil pressure valve. Also 20 40 oil No change oil pressure still drops on highway speeds. Basically 18ish then even lower at idle roughly a bit above 10 until it sits and gets completely cold again.

ON a cold start later on the pressure is in the 40's then starts the same routine oil pressure drops. I don't see it in my normal driving as I just do quick trips 10 or 15 miles or so. Non highway

Anyway I attached some pictures of the bearings. Most show dirt scoring except for the rod bearings on 5 and 6 they wear on one side on the top half only.

Anyway current plan is conversion to full flow filter. New bearings and oil pump. Crank will be turned to the high side on a 20 grind. A though cleaning of course.

The engine builder has been good about working the issue the crank was miked and showed all of the journals on high side of 10 under. Bearings show the scoring from dirt and the pump looks good. Basically other than the 5 and 6 rods showing the wear in the top half of the shells no reason for the pressure to drop. Granted the bearing scoring is not good but should it acount for the oil pressure dropping. Still needs fixed I know.

Any thoughts?

Also found some valve guides that were out of tolerance by more than a bit. Those are all going to be replaced.

I have attached some pictures as well.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Alshere59

[Joe Flanagan]

Is there any way to test your oil pump to see if it's working properly?

[Young Ed]

I'm not sure what state the engine is currently in but I'd want to have the cam bearings inspected.

[Don Coatney]

Exactly how do you plan to convert your engine to full flow oil filtration?

I also see a lot of heat in your bearing caps. Has this engine ran low on oil at some point? I agree with Joe and Ed, replace the cam bearings and install a new oil pump. Good idea to replace the timing chain and gears too.

[Young Ed]

The 218 that is currently in my truck was rebuilt and sat around to be used in my dads 51 convert. After all the time to get the body done the engine lost oil pressure after 72 miles. Teardown turned up dirt has wiped out the crank. That engine ended up with new cam bearings and .020 under crank and rod bearings. And even at only 72 miles the shop said no way to the old oil pump.

[Alshere59]

Joe

The pump is going to be replaced. Not sure how you would check them operating out of the car, it looked good however. Is there a way.

Young Ed

The cam bearings looked good but will be replaced just for cheap insurance. All line/passages cleaned etc.

Still haven't really determined why the oil pressure goes down with any certainty at least not for me. Found problems but not enough for the pressure to drop at full temperature only. Just trying to cover all of my bases.

Thanks for the ideas keep them coming.

Like why the rod bearings on 5 and 6 wore on the top of the bearing and not the bottom? The rods will be reworked or replaced but?

Don

I didn't see any temperature indications on the bearing shells but will look again. Have never ran low on oil but as stated it did go pretty low on pressure and it did make it to the brass on two of the rods.

Full flow will be taping into the oil outlet on the side of the block putting in a plug then taping in again past the plug.

A bit risky I know but if it works I should have cleaner oil in the long run. Doesn't filter as fine as the original but that one doesn't filter it all the time.

I have seen it done in other threads. Basically it is the same process used by Richie Hodge in his post.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=17899

I think the line size will be slightly larger than 3/8's however. I will put up pics and fitting sizes when the machine work is done. Also the plug between the two oil lines that will be tapped in are threaded as well so completely reversible.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Alshere59

[oldodge41]

Check out this site for bearing wear analysis.

http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf

[garbagestate 44]

Here's a page from a 1957 Chrysler industrial manual regarding full flow conversion

[Kevinb71]

How do the tappets and camshaft look? The particles on the magnets look very similiar in nature to an issue i had with some rocker arms causing issues for the cam on an OHV engine. To me looking at the photos of the bearings there is enough wear there to cause oil pressure loss. You have to find where those steel filings came from. They took out your bearings IMHO. What about the thrust face on the main thrust bearing?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Those bearings sure look worn more in the center area-especially the main bearing. Are they sized right for the crank? IE .010" for a .010" turned crank ? The bearings look really bad for a low mileage rebuild. I always mike the bearing bore and the crank before assembly.

[Alshere59]

How do the tappets and camshaft look? The particles on the magnets look very similiar in nature to an issue i had with some rocker arms causing issues for the cam on an OHV engine. To me looking at the photos of the bearings there is enough wear there to cause oil pressure loss. You have to find where those steel filings came from. They took out your bearings IMHO. What about the thrust face on the main thrust bearing?

Kevin I hope your right and that is what caused the loss of pressure because then I shouldn't have any gremlins out there. The cam and tappets look very good. I will putting my magnets back in as well. Very small but very strong and every bit helps. The thrust face looks good to my eye and the shops. I just don't get why its only when the oil gets hot. I am leaning for it to be in the pump honestly but it looked good also.

Dodge The bearing and cranked were all miked both before the rebuild and and after the problems started. They were and are on the low side on the 10 grind. They do show a lot of damage that is the truth. The filings I am at a loss. The shop has found nothing and neither have I, no worn parts, tappets, cam, thrust face, timing chain, sprockets etc. Still looking but frankly I am at a loss.

I just need to get it worked out. My wife has been very supportive as she knows I have wanted an old car for years but seems to be losing some of her enthusiasim..

Al

Edited November 16, 2011 by Alshere59

[Dodgeb4ya]

Do you know who made the rod and main bearings? Seems like others on this forum have had this issue too.

I don't think you need the full flow to prevent this from happening again. All you need is good quality parts and a good machinist and assembler/installer. It should run 100,000 miles with care.

Cleanliness is as stated a top prority!

[aero3113]

Do you know who made the rod and main bearings? Seems like others on this forum have had this issue too.

I don't think you need the full flow to prevent this from happening again. All you need is good quality parts and a good machinist and assembler/installer. It should run 100,000 miles with care.

Cleanliness is as stated a top prority!

I agree

[Alshere59]

Let me look through the receipts for the bearings.

The shop has been building engines since the 50's same father and son team. They are highly thought of.

Any source for bearings anyone recommends?

Or who to stay away from, PM's if you are reluctant to post.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Stay away from any no name brands-meaning offshore stuff-like CHINA made old car engine parts.. This could be tough to do anymore. Michigan and Federal Mogul is what I used to use. But I have not rebuilt any old MoPar engines in several years now so I'm kinda out of the loop on what's a high quality brand name anymore.

TimKen used to be a HQ USA supplier-not anymore.

[Alshere59]

Well stopped in at the shop doing the conversion. A couple of pictures on that. As mentioned before the plug to seal th passage between the new connections is threaded so it can be reversed if desired.

The bearings are federal mogul for the crank and clevite for the rods as are the new ones. Dodgeb4u

Anyway hope to have the engine back next week and finish putting it together and back in.

The shop that is doing the work are big on Fords but they wanted the site, maybe they will convert to Mopar. George you listening?

Edited November 19, 2011 by Alshere59

[mach0415]

Did you have the engine line bored for the initial rebuild? If not, may want to check on that for 5 and 6 bearing wear just in case there is some allowance for crank flexing, causing abnormal wear.

Edited November 20, 2011 by mach0415

[Alshere59]

Yep that was done. Actually the shop does a lot of racing enigines. Some I have seen are Indy light series, various engines for other cars (Fords mainly) and even some tractors, my mopar flathead was actually their first mopar L6. They have my shop maual and a lot of experience so life should be good.

[mach0415]

That's good. I have actually known of shops to do all but that.