Possible startup tomorrow

[Joe Flanagan]

So is it normal to turn the engine by hand and be turning the starter as well? That's what was happening in my case.

To answer your question, I used star washers when I first hooked everything up but some may be missing now so I will have to go back and check.

[Don Coatney]

So is it normal to turn the engine by hand and be turning the starter as well? That's what was happening in my case.

Normal if the starter gear never disengaged from the flywheel. Happened to me a couple of times. I had to place the transmission in high gear and rock the car back and forth until it popped free. That is one of the reasons I elected to convert to a 12 volt starter as opposed to using a 6 volt starter on 12 volts. When using a 6 volt starter on 12 volts the bendix engages at twice the speed and I felt that is what caused my problems. Once I swapped the starter with a 12 volt unit I never again had a problem.

[P-12 Tommy]

Joe, Sounds like you'll be next tomorrow. Everybody's rootin' for ya! Good luck!

Tom

[Niel Hoback]

The starter drive gear is driven back when the engine fires and flywheel speed exceeds starter speed. If the engine doesn't fire, the starter drive can stay engaged with the ring gear. There is no return spring or mechanical linkage to pull it back. Well, I should say thats how it is on my p-15.

[oldodge41]

Sorry to delete my post but after reading Don and Niels post I realized my information was incorrect and I didn't want to confuse the issue. I checked a starter I have here and they do not operate the way I thought they did. Sorry if I confused anyone........Tim

[Joe Flanagan]

Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the advice.

[Joe Flanagan]

I turned the distributor 180 degrees and it wants to start. The only problem is the starter stays engaged with the flywheel. Based on past threads, I assume this is a faulty starter solenoid. Could it also be bad contacts in the ignition switch? What I'm going to do next is bypass the ignition switch and see if that eliminates the problem. If not, I'll try to start it by bypassing both the switch and the solenoid.

My earlier problem was due to the inner fender well not being properly grounded to the engine block. I fixed that and I have current everywhere I need it. I'll report back.

[greg g]

Joe the bendix release is purely a mechanical deal. the rotation of the starter motor spins it into contact with the ring gear. When the engine fires and the engine turns faster than the bendix it is supposed to spit it out. This assumes the starter is no longer being spun by the electrical conection.

You might try to shim the starter to the bellhousing with a couple washers on the bolts, to see if it might help the release of the bendix. The bendix mechanism should be clean and free of dings and gouges, and dry of any grease or oil.

Assure your solenoid is breaking the electrical connectio to the starter when the starter button is released. There should be no current on the starter side when ther is no current from the button.

[Joe Flanagan]

What I was thinking was that maybe the connection is not being broken and that might be what the problem is. I noticed that when I installed the solenoid, one of the posts was bent a little. I straightened it out, but it might have been damaged when I stored it last summer. It was still attached to the inner fender well and I stored the whole piece up in the rafters of my garage. I might have screwed the thing up when I lifted it up there.

[Joe Flanagan]

Well, it runs. But before I could get it sustained, I saw smoke pouring out of the wire that runs from the starter terminal to the automatic choke. Shut everything down, pulled the starter, examined it. All good. Reassembled the starter and tried again. I'm using a toggle switch and a push button to start the car so I can eliminate the ignition switch as a suspect (thanks to Greg G. for this ingenious workaround). I get it running for a few seconds and once again, smoke pouring out of the wire to the automatic choke. Practically fried the insulation right off it. Out comes the voltmeter. With the ignition switch off, I have six volts on every single terminal of the solenoid, battery, switch, and starter. Six volts running to the automatic choke, too. Disconnected the battery, left it alone.

So, my conclusion is that the solenoid is hosed. Does anyone know of a way to start the engine by bypassing the solenoid? If I could see a wiring diagram that would help me a great deal. The only thing I can't figure out is how to get power to the ignition coil.

[Alshere59]

I have this one. Hope it helps, I wasn't sure if you meant the whole schematic but that is what I have.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Alshere59

[Flatie46]

I think you need to sit down and have a talk with this car Joe. Lol Good luck! hope she runs like a top.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Well, it runs. But before I could get it sustained, I saw smoke pouring out of the wire that runs from the starter terminal to the automatic choke. Shut everything down, pulled the starter, examined it. All good. Reassembled the starter and tried again. I'm using a toggle switch and a push button to start the car so I can eliminate the ignition switch as a suspect (thanks to Greg G. for this ingenious workaround). I get it running for a few seconds and once again, smoke pouring out of the wire to the automatic choke. Practically fried the insulation right off it. Out comes the voltmeter. With the ignition switch off, I have six volts on every single terminal of the solenoid, battery, switch, and starter. Six volts running to the automatic choke, too. Disconnected the battery, left it alone.

So, my conclusion is that the solenoid is hosed. Does anyone know of a way to start the engine by bypassing the solenoid? If I could see a wiring diagram that would help me a great deal. The only thing I can't figure out is how to get power to the ignition coil.

Generally what I've found when the wire from the big starter stud terminal to the Sisson choke unit burns up is because too long of a screw was used to fasten the wire to to choke unit causing a direct ground short. Otherwise the choke unit is internally shorted out.

Just disconnect the choke wire at the starter for now if you cannot figure it out and get the engine started and running-deal with it later. It'll be an easy fix.

Bob

[Joe Flanagan]

Thanks Alshere. I just wanted to bypass the solenoid and was wondering how I'd run the wiring to the starter using my temporary push-button switch.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Joe Flanagan

[greg g]

You can use a jumper cable from the batt side of the solenoid, to the starter main terminal. or go from negative batt terminal to the starter.

You will gets some sparks as you connect and disconnect but that will bypass the solenoid. I would disconect the choke wire from the solenoid till you get it sorted.

You did get the engine running for a few minutes. Isn't the choke wire supposed to be connected to the small solenoid terminal that comes from the starter button????

Souds like your solenoid is sticking in the connected position.

The solenoid's job is to remotely connect the main cable high load circuit when energized by the starter button circuit. It should release when the button, switch is released.

[Joe Flanagan]

According to my wiring diagram, the wire to the automatic choke comes from the terminal on the starter. Thanks for the information. I'll take a shot at starting it that way.

[Dodgeb4ya]

According to my wiring diagram, the wire to the automatic choke comes from the terminal on the starter. Thanks for the information. I'll take a shot at starting it that way.

Like I said-Choke 6V black feed wire is fed from the starter terminal stud to Sisson choke. Reason is so that the choke plate is snapped closed when starter is cranking only. All 49-52 Ply Dodge's are factory assembled that way.

You will need a heavier single jumper cable to by pass the solenoid. I have even used pliers to jump across the solenoid-lotsa sparks.

[Joe Flanagan]

Bypassed the solenoid by touching the cable from the starter to the battery terminal of the solenoid. The wire to the automatic choke is still smoking and the engine was turning very slowly even though the battery is 75% charged. I'm wondering if maybe Dodgeb4ya is right and that it's a choke issue and not a starter/solenoid issue. There is nothing different about how I hooked everything up between now and last summer. The one thing I have done differently is run a ground wire from one of the bolts that holds the solenoid to the fender and attached the other end to the engine block.

I decided to take apart my solenoid and this is what I found:

The above two pictures show the two posts of the solenoid and the underside of the disc that gets pulled against them when the solenoid is activated. You are looking at the underside of the disc, where it makes contact with the two posts. It looks like they were welded together.

In this picture of one of the posts, you can see where it looks like the disc either wore or fused itself into the contact surface.

Above is one of the posts where it makes contact with the disc. Looks fused

The other post with what look like two weld spots on it.

Above: The underside of the disc where it contacts the posts.

Ordering a new solenoid from Roberts first thing tomorrow. Don't know whether the frying choke wire is related, but this didn't happen last time I ran the engine. I'm using the right screw at the choke terminal. It is not too long. Anyway, more will be revealed.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Joe Flanagan

[Don Coatney]

Joe;

You may have found your problem however using green wood for a saw horse will also lead to problems:rolleyes:

[Joe Flanagan]

Don, it's green by accident, not by choice.

Does that solenoid look shot to you?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Looks like poor contact wear. Napa Crappa. Echlin solenoid?

Choke/ wire is not the problem-just another problem.

[greg g]

Joe if you cleaned up those surfaces, the solenoid would probably get you through a few starting cycles, at least until your new one arrives. Until you get things sorted leave the auto choke disconnected.

[Joe Flanagan]

Looks like poor contact wear. Napa Crappa. Echlin solenoid?

Choke/ wire is not the problem-just another problem.

So you think the choke wire is unrelated to the bad solenoid?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Absolutely unrelated to the solenoid. Don't be concerned with it (Choke/Choke Wire) for now. Just get the engine running correctly fully warmed up without your choke system for now. It will be easy to fix later.

Bob

[Guest bewillie]

solenoid can be bought at any auto parts store. NAPA-ADVANCE-AUTOZONE-CARQUEST any of them.