fedoragent Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Folks, After a month of getting the emergency brake replaced, tie rods straightened, rear axle shaft rods the right length, pumpkin lubed and drums working again...another problem has reared it's fugly head. My brake and wheel guy, well past retirement has alas come up against a problem that he cannot solve. The front end is -3 degrees off and he can't get the front to align for the life of him. He said that he's not sure if it is the frame, or even if the car has been in an accident. He just knows that no matter what he tries, he can't get it to align. So my questions are thus: 1. Would -3 degrees be unsafe to drive the car? 2. Would the tires and non stock wheels be contributing factor? 3. What are factors I should consider in assessing how I should proceed? I'm toying with the idea of driving the car the way she is. I know the tires are going to wear to hell, and that she may drive a bit squirrely...but I want her back on the road. However, I don't want her back on the road only to wreck her AND me. I'd really like to get people's thoughts on this one. Please let me know your feedback because, frankly, I'm at a loss. Thanks, FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIPJOBXX Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Did you have a thrust alignment? I took my car to Les Swab and they did my alignment. Maybe you should try another shop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Did you have a thrust alignment? I took my car to Les Swab and they did my alignment. Maybe you should try another shop! Perhaps I should take it to another shop...but this gent definitely knows what he is doing. I'll try that, but I'd also like to see what other folks think. Les Schwab is still in business where you live? I didn't know any of them still existed. Thank you for the tip. FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 (edited) your three degrees, is this caster, camber or toe? it is quite possible that an accident of days of yore left you with a small problem. In the service manual is the actual frame dimensions...with clearly marked guage holes..maybe you should make this available to the man at time of alignment.. each area can be tweaked just a tad and often extended range adjuster were made available for some cars due to these conditions...A-body Plymouth were notorious for this condition..some holes can be enlongated for a tad extra range..do try to do this 1/2 per side Edited August 19, 2010 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopt50wgn Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 you do not want negative caster. 3-4 degrees of positive caster is what you should be shooting for. anything less is fine for low speed driving but I wouldn't do any 55-65 mph highway speeds. the car will be all over the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelOkie Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 (edited) He must be talking negitive caster. The shop manual I have calls for a range of -1 - + 1, and the specifictaions states 0 perferred. Up to 2-3 positive seems like it would be ok, too, and more caster is actually preferred by some people for holding a straight line. To begin to know what (might) be going on someone would need to know what setting (Tim Adams asked, toe, camber, caster), is -3 degrees, and if it that for both wheels, or just one, but in light of not stating that it would certainly seem to be the caster, as the other two have ample adjustment, but caster not within the stated limits is an indication of bent parts in the suspension system. Did he say if BOTH wheels were involved? Edited August 19, 2010 by JoelOkie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 assuming it is caster..and is it both wheels...and it is -3..car will be very quick to dart about at the higher speeds..and add to that one may be using the old bias ply tires..be a challenge to drive I would think.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelOkie Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 assuming it is caster..and is it both wheels...and it is -3..car will be very quick to dart about at the higher speeds..and add to that one may be using the old bias ply tires..be a challenge to drive I would think.. The old carnival ride for sure. I am curious about what having had the "tie rods straightened" is all about. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I guess I would drive it the -3 degrees is only out of spec by 2 degrees which may or may not be noticable. Negative caster makes a car wheels more likely to turn and less likely to track straight. My betwould be that if equiped with radial tires the condition would be less apparent than with biasply. Here is a brief primer on the effects of negative caster: A negative caster adjustment means the wheel is set behind the pivot axis a few degrees or more. This negative caster adjustment usually results in less control, since the wheels are free to turn on their own. Cars with negative caster will sometimes slide and sway from side to side while driving. This causes more fatigue in the driver as he constantly has to straighten the vehicle out. However since most of our cars have slop in the steering box, a similar codition is probably already at play. I would drive it and see what it behaves like, might not even be noticable. Read more: What Is Caster Adjustment? | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5076739_caster-adjustment.html#ixzz0x3ddTJ1z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 If I remember correctly i think the owner of this car had posted some pictures of a bent tierod. If the tie rod was bent then the car had to have been in some form of an accident and this might be the initial cause of his problem. The original poster needs to provide more info rich Hartung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 indeed a clearer picture is always best...the posting of the -3 and not asying in regards to what is being measured leads one to make assumptions and guesses..basically that is what we are doing now and discussing basic scenarios Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelOkie Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 If I remember correctly i think the owner of this car had posted some pictures of a bent tierod. If the tie rod was bent then the car had to have been in some form of an accident and this might be the initial cause of his problem.The original poster needs to provide more info rich Hartung That's where I was going with it too Rich, if it had to have work down to the front end to begin with, (something bent from an accident?) the problem would possibly be connected with that. As Tim has stated, there is not enough information here to know what is going on. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james49ply Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 with having a bent tie rod, I would check the monting points for the lower control arm. if moved it will knock everthing out of whack. same for the upper control arm. if in accident you could have warped lower or upper control arms or the shaft that is mounted to the frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIPJOBXX Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Boy I should say with all these negatives and positives caster and other stuff my mind has gone in to orbit! Interesting but thank god I do not haft to deal with this subject. Although my old Dodge did have contact with an old barn back years ago. One of the owners kids ran it right into the side of the barn and denoted that to me the last time I saw him. He asked if I noticed the damage on the drivers side fender and yep I sure did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 Gents, Sorry, I've been working and just got back to this posting. I'll answer all the of the questions in the order received. I went to drive the car today and it wasn't as squirrelly as I thought it would be. I am not using bias ply tires, but radials. I was rather tired last night when I posted that and there were no bent tie rods. Rather some other front suspension pieces that were bent not due to an accident...but to a stupid tow truck driver. He put the chains on the control arms. Both of them were bent, but the gent I have working on my car has straightened them out. He does need the frame dimensions, and I'm looking into that now. Does anyone have the frame dimensions handy? I printed out exactly what is on this thread and he said that, yes it was both front wheels. I drove her today at 45mph and didn't notice too much of a problem keeping her straight. I drove her for a couple of blocks and everything seemed fine. After talking with him at length, he agrees that the variance should be -1 to 1. However, his goal is 0. He said that he'd have to play with it a bit to see what he could do. He's not quite done yet. He also said that the springs are quite old, perhaps stock and should at sometime be replaced. He used the suspension airbags to level out the car. He also said that with the caster at -3, the car wouldn't track right, and it would be trouble at higher speeds to control. If you gents would like to see the original bend, I can provide those pics: He also wrote some notes down for me to share with you in case you're curious. The camber is as follows -3/8 degrees on the R/F wheel and -7/8 degrees on the L/F wheel. The caster problem is on both wheels. He also said that he toe end is set to specs. One last thing, that I thought that I'd mention that he didn't think would be a problem was the tires being odd sizes. Enclosed are a couple of pictures taken throughout July so that you can see where we started with the front end. Any input you folks can provide would be helpful. Please be kind as I'm new to all of this. FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 (edited) you can run mix matched tires on the car but the tires per axles should match here is an article that goes into some aspect concerning alignment of the older Mopar..it will address use of radial tires on these older suspensions and the recommend "tuning" for their use.. you may wish to print this and give it to your alignment shop..he may or may not agree..but ...as he is the man who is standing behind the work, most times it is their call..and if withing factory limits..should be serviceable.. http://www.customrodder.com/tech/0505cr_frontend_alignment/index.html be careful when reading the article..at one point it will contradict itself..just keep your mind focused on the principle and "read through" the article.. Edited August 20, 2010 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 you can run mix matched tires on the car but the tires per axles should matchhere is an article that goes into some aspect concerning alignment of the older Mopar..it will address use of radial tires on these older suspensions and the recommend "tuning" for their use.. you may wish to print this and give it to your alignment shop..he may or may not agree..but ...as he is the man who is standing behind the work, most times it is their call..and if withing factory limits..should be serviceable.. http://www.customrodder.com/tech/0505cr_frontend_alignment/index.html be careful when reading the article..at one point it will contradict itself..just keep your mind focused on the principle and "read through" the article.. Tim, Thanks for the great input. I'll give this to Tom this morning. Also, the tires do match per axle. FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 20, 2010 Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 either you wearing sandals in the shop which is not safe or your wife got hairy legs... I'll go stand in the corner now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2010 either you wearing sandals in the shop which is not safe or your wife got hairy legs...I'll go stand in the corner now... I never...wear open toed shoes. That was another one of his customers that had come by to drop off his Pontiac if memory serves right. FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 you can run mix matched tires on the car but the tires per axles should matchhere is an article that goes into some aspect concerning alignment of the older Mopar..it will address use of radial tires on these older suspensions and the recommend "tuning" for their use.. you may wish to print this and give it to your alignment shop..he may or may not agree..but ...as he is the man who is standing behind the work, most times it is their call..and if withing factory limits..should be serviceable.. http://www.customrodder.com/tech/0505cr_frontend_alignment/index.html be careful when reading the article..at one point it will contradict itself..just keep your mind focused on the principle and "read through" the article.. Folks, Any other suggestion? Thanks, FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 (edited) does this entry mean that the mechanic has not been able to get any closer to the alignment specs????????? if there has been a change or upgrade ion data/info...we need to be kept abreast of the changes/developments only other question I have is if maybe the supsension has been rebuilt and the upright are not 'centered' correctly.... Edited August 21, 2010 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoelOkie Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 He must be talking negitive caster. The shop manual I have calls for a range of -1 - + 1, and the specifictaions states 0 perferred. but caster not within the stated limits is an indication of bent parts in the suspension system. QUOTE] This is what the shop manual clearly states. How you got to -3 caster on both wheels without an accident, or something being bent at both wheels the same amount, (which would seem highly unlikely), would have to then be because someone did something to the suspension that affected the caster. Without a good visual, and making some close comparison measurements, it would be hard to know exactly what is going on. You frontend mechenic should be able to narrow it down, and figure what has to be done, (or re-done), to enable bring the front end back into specifications. Someone stated that -3 is not that far off from -1, which is in the range of the factory caster specifications, and you may be able to drive the car fine the way it is, of which I don't know if would be ok or not, but I do know from personal experience that on caster a couple of degrees of negitive is sometimes quite a bit of difference in the way the car will go straight down the road, as compared to being off a few extra degrees positive. The reason I know this is because I have messed with grafting front stubs on several cars, as well as some creative front end builds, where being off just a little can screw things. I now use a gauge like this one when I do any front end work so I can keep an eye on what is going on throughout. Good luck. Joel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 21, 2010 Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 The one Joel has pictured is available from a number of suppliers, Eastwood Ind. is one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 does this entry mean that the mechanic has not been able to get any closer to the alignment specs????????? if there has been a change or upgrade ion data/info...we need to be kept abreast of the changes/developmentsonly other question I have is if maybe the supsension has been rebuilt and the upright are not 'centered' correctly.... Folks, As far as if the suspension has been rebuilt, I don't know. I called the 3rd owner and he said that he didn't have it done nor did he do it. He's out of contact with the 2nd owner and the 1st I figure has gone to the big Plymouth garage in the sky. I haven't been to see the alignment gent this morning yet. However, when I left him on Thursday evening, he said that he'd have to continue working on it. He did however, ask for the frame specifications/measurements. Where would I find that? FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fedoragent Posted August 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2010 He must be talking negitive caster. The shop manual I have calls for a range of -1 - + 1, and the specifictaions states 0 perferred. but caster not within the stated limits is an indication of bent parts in the suspension system. QUOTE] This is what the shop manual clearly states. How you got to -3 caster on both wheels without an accident, or something being bent at both wheels the same amount, (which would seem highly unlikely), would have to then be because someone did something to the suspension that affected the caster. Without a good visual, and making some close comparison measurements, it would be hard to know exactly what is going on. You frontend mechenic should be able to narrow it down, and figure what has to be done, (or re-done), to enable bring the front end back into specifications. Someone stated that -3 is not that far off from -1, which is in the range of the factory caster specifications, and you may be able to drive the car fine the way it is, of which I don't know if would be ok or not, but I do know from personal experience that on caster a couple of degrees of negitive is sometimes quite a bit of difference in the way the car will go straight down the road, as compared to being off a few extra degrees positive. The reason I know this is because I have messed with grafting front stubs on several cars, as well as some creative front end builds, where being off just a little can screw things. I now use a gauge like this one when I do any front end work so I can keep an eye on what is going on throughout. Good luck. Joel Well, I hope he's had the chance to work on it. He's a one man shop. I've seen a tool like that in his shop and ironically a foot or two way from my car. And he definitely said it is -3 degrees on both wheels. I'll let you know what I find out today. FG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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