Smoking

[John-T-53]

My rebuilt flathead has just over 3,000 miles on it and has started to burn a little oil when it's hot. There's a puff of oil smoke out the tailpipe when the truck gets going in 1st gear from a stop...usually the engine revs a bit. It's on its 3rd batch of oil, and it was last changed at 1,000 miles. It runs fine, has 40lbs oil pressure, and no other problems. The only thing that has caught my attention is a small amount of white greasy susbtance on the dipstick. I have a PCV system so not sure if that's caused by condensation.

Could the rings go bad so soon???

[Reg Evans]

The white greasy substance could be an indication of a leaking head gasket. Have you checked the torque on the head bolts ?

[Merle Coggins]

I suspect that your PCV system is drawing in oil vapor at idle which then appears as a puff of blue smoke when you take off. Maybe you could temporarily disconnet it and see if the oil smoke goes away.

Also, the PCV system recovers crankcase vapors but it doesn't remove the moisture in your engine. Are you getting the engine up to operating temperature for long enough periods to expell all of the condensation that builds up?

Merle

[MBF]

Merle-correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that a properly working PCV system will remove moisture IF the oil temperature is hot enough to vaporize whatever moisture is in the crankcase. If I'm wrong, I stand corrected. I know that the PCV system that I installed made a big difference on how long the oil stayed clean looking.

[Merle Coggins]

IF the oil temperature is hot enough to vaporize whatever moisture is in the crankcase.

That right there is the critical element. At that point you are correct.

[John-T-53]

Every time I start up the ol' gal, I always get 'er up to full temp. Usually my drives involve some highway time. I'm gonna pull the PCV and reinstall the draft tube for another freeway outing coming up at 3 p.m. today. I'll see what that does.

The head bolts are tight, and the head and block were milled. I used the copper spray on both sides of the head gasket when I installed it, so in theory that should be leak-free. I had a problem sealing the two lower exhaust manifold bolts - the two long ones that protrude into the water jacket. I wonder if they also pass through an oil area?

[Don Coatney]

Every time I start up the ol' gal, I always get 'er up to full temp. Usually my drives involve some highway time. I'm gonna pull the PCV and reinstall the draft tube for another freeway outing coming up at 3 p.m. today. I'll see what that does.

The head bolts are tight, and the head and block were milled. I used the copper spray on both sides of the head gasket when I installed it, so in theory that should be leak-free. I had a problem sealing the two lower exhaust manifold bolts - the two long ones that protrude into the water jacket. I wonder if they also pass through an oil area?

Having never been there, How big (in road miles) is San Juan Capistrano?

[MBF]

John-I the two long bolts wouldn't have access to the oil galley unless something was cracked. What I suspect may be happening is that its loaded up with condensation from short trips-having it up to temp on the guage doesn't mean that the oil is hot enough to vaporize the condensate. I just did a valve job on my 52 1 ton-got it together-took it for a 3-4 mile ride to get it up to temp so I could dump the oil to pull and clean the pan. Even though the coolant was up to temp on the guage, the oil was just barely warm when I dumped it-certainly no where near warm enough to allow the PCV system (or a road tube) to do its job. What you could also have is a leak at the face of the intake manifold to block surface that is drawing in water from the leaky bolts, but I'd bet its just condensate just waiting to be boiled out of the system. Did the swallows come back yet? Mike

[grey beard]

When you did your engine rebuild, what did you do with your valve guides? These are quite prone to wear on flatties. In point of fact, it is impossible to do an acceptable valve job without first repairing the guides, for it is the guides that hold the pilot shaft centered for dressing the valve seats.

Your smoke problem sorta' sounds - long distance, mind you - to me like you're pulling a little oil into the combustion chambers. If your guides are new, than some other issue needs to be looked at.

I, too, have a PCV system on a newly overhauled 218, but have never experienced what you are describing. Like Mr. Fowler says, your engine MUST get up to operating temperateres where the engine oil is also warm - not just the water in the head next to the temp gauge sender. This takes a minimum of thirty minutes' driving time. I always use a 180 degree stat for this reason. Anything lower is just a joke.

Let us know what you find.

Good Luck

[John-T-53]

Having never been there, How big (in road miles) is San Juan Capistrano?

SJC isn't that big of a town, but I usually head south to San Clemente or San Diego from where I am (was). Bottom line is - I always run the truck for a minimum of 30 minutes each time I take her out. Anything less is just enough to get everything wet.

Did the swallows come back yet? Mike

No sign on the swallows yet, but the official day for their return is March 19th.

When you did your engine rebuild, what did you do with your valve guides?

All new guides and stainless valves.

But the updated status is...smoking still a little, but less now. I removed the pcv and reinstalled the draft tube, and it made no difference. The engine has developed a bad knocking sound today. Its getting worse, and occurs when accelerating or going uphill. Oil pressure and temp are good. I drove the truck north 300 miles, the bed packed to the brim since I'm moving. Before I left, I changed the oil and found no water or any other bad signs. I pulled the plugs and they looked fine also - no oil or moisture. I checked the head bolts and they were tight. I checked the coolant and didn't see any oil and its level hasn't gone down.

I wonder if its a just a cylinder that has gone bad? Why such wear after only 3,000 miles? I have been driving this truck on the highway regularly doing 50-55 for 5 hours at a time...including after I broke it in. Never had any problems before. Would driving the truck at these speeds during the first 1,000 miles play any role in premature piston and ring wear?

I'm really bummed...after investing $6k into a rebuild and 7 months of my time, this could have not come at a worse time. Gotta drive 230 more miles tomorrow, and start my new job Monday. I'll let you know if I make it.

Edited March 14, 2010 by John-T-53

[Don Coatney]

SJC isn't that big of a town, but I usually head south to San Clemente or San Diego from where I am (was). Bottom line is - I always run the truck for a minimum of 30 minutes each time I take her out. Anything less is just enough to get everything wet.

No sign on the swallows yet, but the official day for their return is March 19th.

All new guides and stainless valves.

But the updated status is...smoking still a little, but less now. I removed the pcv and reinstalled the draft tube, and it made no difference. The engine has developed a bad knocking sound today. Its getting worse, and occurs when accelerating or going uphill. Oil pressure and temp are good. I drove the truck north 300 miles, the bed packed to the brim since I'm moving. Before I left, I changed the oil and found no water or any other bad signs. I pulled the plugs and they looked fine also - no oil or moisture. I checked the head bolts and they were tight. I checked the coolant and didn't see any oil and its level hasn't gone down.

I wonder if its a just a cylinder that has gone bad? Why such wear after only 3,000 miles? I have been driving this truck on the highway regularly doing 50-55 for 5 hours at a time...including after I broke it in. Never had any problems before. Would driving the truck at these speeds during the first 1,000 miles play any role in premature piston and ring wear?

I'm really bummed...after investing $6k into a rebuild and 7 months of my time, this could have not come at a worse time. Gotta drive 230 more miles tomorrow, and start my new job Monday. I'll let you know if I make it.

Did you check your ignition timing? Might simply be spark knock.

[Merle Coggins]

I'd be pretty concerned about an engine knock of any kind and wouldn't be planning a long trip with it until it was resolved. It may be detonation due to too much advance on the timing. Or it could be a bad wrist pin bushing, or even worse, a rod bearing. The first can cause damage to the second which will only continue to get worse over time. The third option can only lead to catastrophe if you continue to run it.

Merle

[John-T-53]

I drove another 130 miles yesterday to the lovely town of Gonzales, Cal where I called AAA for a flatbed tow truck. By then we were within 100 miles of the destination so I decided to play it safe. The engine was still running but the knocking was slightly worse. It's definitely the characteristic metal-on-metal knock of a worn something in the reciprocating assembly. Also getting a lot of blow-by fumes and some smoke. Probably a wrist pin bushing like Merle had mentioned, and the rings must be shot. The oil pressure is still good, although just a hair lower, so I'm not holding onto much hope for the rod bearing.

I wonder if the oil hole in a rod got clogged, depriving the wrist pin and cylinder walls of oil??? Is there a small passage up the center of the connecting rod that lubricates all of the above, or is it splashed?

I will do a compression test this weekend, then take the head and pan off to see what's up. I'm really hoping the damage is localized to one cylinder. If so, with an idealistic view, I could replace the rings, pin, bushing, and rod bearing and hone the cylinder out. Maybe replace the piston too.

I gotta get this baby back on the road asap...wish me luck!!! Until then I'm stuck at the bus stop with the vagrants.

[Merle Coggins]

If you had a spun rod bearing I highly doubt that you'd have been able to drive 130 miles without grenading your engine. You'll have to have a good listen, but I'd be leaning towards the wrist pin bushing. It could also be the fuel pump knocking. I've not personnally experienced that problem, but I've heard of others that have. That would be an easy fix if it were. But since you also mention extra blowby that tends to drag me back to thinking pistons. Did you use NOS pistons or new? Maybe you got a bad one? Or maybe a failed wrist pin bushing cracked a piston?

Good luck with it. I hope it isn't too serious.

Merle

[John-T-53]

The new .040 pistons came from Egge, and the rings were from Hastings. Everything was legit, and all parts were balanced.

[HanksB3B]

A wise choice to Flatbed the last 100 miles. I asked what is considered max rpm on the L6: between 2500 and 3,000 max. I'm thinking of getting a six volt tach. I was once at a stoplight and this old 30 foot long Pontiac was next to me it was knocking like crazy, then I heard a loud "thud clunk, *&%#?$@!!!" then a bunch of parts and a barrel of oil was on the pavement followed by silence. Glad you and your truck made it in one piece. I hope it's an isolated problem like you are thinking and that there is no damage to the cylinder walls. Maybe someone someone who couldn't count to six just missed torquing a connecting rod. I really hope it turns out to be a best case senario.

How far do you live from your new job?

Hank

[TodFitch]

I drove another 130 miles yesterday to the lovely town of Gonzales, Cal where I called AAA for a flatbed tow truck. By then we were within 100 miles of the destination so I decided to play it safe. ...snip...

Sounds familiar: I once nursed my 1933 back to Soledad to get it just within the 100 mile range for my AAA+ free towing. In my case it was a clogged up radiator. San Mateo is just a bit north of me, so picking Gonzales, the next town north of Soledad on US-101, sounds about right.

Not sure how familiar you are with machine shops and such on the Peninsula or around the Bay Area but maybe I can help you find what ever services you need to get everything running right.

[John-T-53]

Not sure how familiar you are with machine shops and such on the Peninsula or around the Bay Area but maybe I can help you find what ever services you need to get everything running right.

So Tod, you must be down towards Redwood City? Are there any machine shops around here that work on old stuff? I'm new to the peninsula so I 'm starting all over again...

I'm walking distance to work, so at least that's cool for me and the truck as of now...but I'll have to get another car soon so I can go to San Jose for job site visits.

[TodFitch]

So Tod, you must be down towards Redwood City? Are there any machine shops around here that work on old stuff? I'm new to the peninsula so I 'm starting all over again...

I'm walking distance to work, so at least that's cool for me and the truck as of now...but I'll have to get another car soon so I can go to San Jose for job site visits.

I'm in Sunnyvale. There is a mechanic/garage someplace up near you that a number of people I know have taken their 1930s Plymouths for work and had good things to say. But I can't remember the name of the place. I want to say its "Floyd's". But I think that is the owners name and not the business name. I owe one of those people who have had work done there a call back and will try to remember to ask when I'm on the phone.

If I recall correctly, there is also an engine rebuilder in the East Bay that a number of people have used.

Sorry for my current lack of details: I do all my own "minor" stuff and most of the major as well. And my engine is running strong still with no need for much more than oil changes and an occasional tune up. So I haven't had to farm out that type of work since I moved up here from LA about 12 years ago.

Also, James with the DeSoto up in San Francisco can probably help with vendors farther up the peninsula.

[TodFitch]

Here's the contact information for the fellow that a number of people in the Plymouth Club has used:

Floyd Alvis

Champion Automotive

1036 American St.

San Carlos, CA

(650) 591-2664

The fellow I talked to has had Floyd put new pistons in his 1937 Plymouth and also had Floyd do some work on his 1932 four cylinder Plymouth. He says Floyd prefers working on the older vehicles.

I don't know where you are in San Mateo, but Google maps says its about 7 miles from the middle of San Mateo to Floyd's shop so that should be reasonably close for you.

The fellow I was thinking about for engine rebuilding in the East Bay has passed away so that lead is false.

[John-T-53]

Here's the contact information for the fellow that a number of people in the Plymouth Club has used:

Floyd Alvis

Champion Automotive

1036 American St.

San Carlos, CA

(650) 591-2664

The fellow I talked to has had Floyd put new pistons in his 1937 Plymouth and also had Floyd do some work on his 1932 four cylinder Plymouth. He says Floyd prefers working on the older vehicles.

I don't know where you are in San Mateo, but Google maps says its about 7 miles from the middle of San Mateo to Floyd's shop so that should be reasonably close for you.\

Thanks Tod, I really appreciate it. I might be calling him Monday depending on what I find out this weekend.

[John-T-53]

Pulled the head, oil pan, pistons and rods. This is what I found (see pics). The bearings were not spun in the bores.

I measured the crank and it did not get damaged, thankfully. Just a few scuffs on the #6 journal which I will clean up with some emory.

The other rod bearings show the beginnings of the same type of wear - cracking and small divots where the lead is eroding. Not sure why this happened, but looks like heat may be a factor; defective bearings not that common. The bearings as installed were 50+ year old stock. They were moderately oxidized and required a little steel wool action to get them smooth. I am wondering if my highway driving in the 3,000 rpm range may play a factor?

The smoking problem was probably due to pieces of the beading flying up into the cylinder and getting caught in the rings. The rings look ok, but the piston is scuffed a bit. Should I re-ring at this point or will the rings reseat with a hone job?

I'm taking the rods to a local shop to be checked out before I reinstall. Also going to check the mains next.

Ugh.

[JBNeal]

a few questions:

what kind of assembly lube didja use?

didja have the rod #s facing the valve side?

were the bearing holes aligned with the holes in the rods?

were the holes cleaned out with a small stiff wire?

were the clearance specs noted within tolerance?

whut kind of break-in procedure didja use once the engine was assembled?

but then again, I don't see much streaking or discoloration of the bearings, they appear to be hammered & spalling. I'm curious what the pistons look like for any signs of detonation...anyhow, good luck with the repairs

[Reg Evans]

John,

Or anyone else.....Have a look at this thread for a temporary 230 engine while you're fixing yours.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?p=187129#post187129

Scroll to the bottom.

Reg

[John-T-53]

what kind of assembly lube didja use? The red kind that my machinist gave me.

didja have the rod #s facing the valve side? not sure, but the holes were aimed towards the cam.

were the bearing holes aligned with the holes in the rods? Yes

were the holes cleaned out with a small stiff wire? Yes.

were the clearance specs noted within tolerance? Yes.

whut kind of break-in procedure didja use once the engine was assembled? As recommended, ran for 1/2 hour then changed oil. Then drove around town for about 100 miles before taking it on the highway. Changed oil again at 1,000 miles.

Attached is pic of the top of the block. There was a lot of carbon buildup which was suprising. It ran great and the timing was at 2 degrees BTDC. Maybe the carb was runnin' a bit rich?