Got Slickered on Flat head Buy

[55 Fargo]

Hi all, last year I found another flat head engine, it was ot of a combine, a local retired farmer had it.

So I figure it's gotta be a 251 or a 265.

Today I finally bought it for $65.00 US, get it home, it had water and maybe some antifreeze mixed in, bad sign, might have froze witha cracked block.

I also notice it has the external by-pass water pump, which is a 40s engine, then lastt night a fellow member checked the engine number which is T112 141458, which is a truck engine from 41 to 48, and is a 218 long block canadian.

Okay so I can live with this, I unbolted the head, came off easy,bolts were also in good shape, but some cyls had water in them, the engine was laying outsdie, so got rain and snow melt no doubt.

I cleaned all of the crud and water out of the cyls and filled them with oil, re-filled crankcase too. I then put the head back on.

The oil pump cover has the Chrysler penta star emblem on it, so not sure about that.

The vlave chamber was clean as a whistle, even the inside of the covers were clean.

Now could this engine still be rebuilt, or should I stick with a seoized 251 I also own.

I do not know if either block is cracked yet at this point...........Fred

[greg g]

The by pass system is not a good indicator of the vintage of an engine. My 46 was internal, the stuff I got from a 48 Dodge was external, the engine in my car from the 56 Plymouth is internal. What is the engine number?

when you get it freed up measure the stroke using the pipe plug over #6.

[dezeldoc]

If it had been run with anti freeze in the crankcase that is not good as it eats the babbit off the bearings. how bad was the rust in the cyls? if not to bad try and fire it off on the ground and see how it runs.

[Oldguy48]

Good advice from Norm...some years ago, I bought a 273, with the intention of rebuilding it, and installing it in my slant six 66 Coronet. Took the block to the machine shop, had it Magnafluxed, and that revealed a cracked block. A real disappontment to me, but at least I only lost the cost of the engine, and the Magnaflux inspection.

[55 Fargo]

Thanx everyone for your input.

The oil pan is in great shape still paint on her, the lifter covers are in great shape, this engine had next to no grease and dirt on her.

The manifolds are the updraft type sued on a combine, it's got extra pulleys etc too.

I pulled the water pump, the water tube is brass, but she is seized in tight right now.

I had the head off, filled all the cyls with oil, put head back on, and removed all spark plugs and re-filled with oil, filled crank case too, drained all coolant out of block.

I just opened the drain **** on the blockagain, some oil came out, must have been when I filled the cyls with the head off, I spilled over a bunch, could have went down water galley holes.

I can move the crank pulley a few inches, but she is then stuck, must be something other than seized piston.

The valve chamber was super clean, no sludge whatsoever.

I would be surprised if this engine is any good for rebuilding, maybe something good for me to learn about the internal mechanisms.

I also have a 251 in my parts coupe, but it is seized, and I do not know if the block is cracked or not either.

I also own a 228, that is in good running shape, but she has miles.

My idea was to build a nice engine , and then drop her into my Chrysler, but not sure what I will do now.

I can always drag this engine to the smelter not far from home, sure I will get my money back in that case.

The bottom line is this the Engine #T112 141458, was used in a combine, but the engine number is for a Dodge truck 1941 to 1948 apparently.......Fred

Edited August 6, 2009 by Rockwood

[dezeldoc]

Fred, rock the crank back and forth, if it has rust in the cyls it will lock it up. if it is not to bad a lot of times rocking it back and forth will break the rust loose. i would have left the head off and wire wheeled the rust out as much as possible then oiled it up and rocked it back and forth, got it turning over then cleaned the rest of the rust out. they will run after being rusted as long as nothing is wrong in the bottom end.

Norm, i can tell if a motor needs rebuilt or not, as for finding cracks that is where the magnuflux comes in, no other reason to mag a block but to check for cracks.

[Don Coatney]

Hi all, last year I found another flat head engine, it was ot of a combine, a local retired farmer had it.

So I figure it's gotta be a 251 or a 265.

Today I finally bought it for $65.00 US, get it home, it had water and maybe some antifreeze mixed in, bad sign, might have froze witha cracked block.

I also notice it has the external by-pass water pump, which is a 40s engine, then lastt night a fellow member checked the engine number which is T112 141458, which is a truck engine from 41 to 48, and is a 218 long block canadian.

Okay so I can live with this, I unbolted the head, came off easy,bolts were also in good shape, but some cyls had water in them, the engine was laying outsdie, so got rain and snow melt no doubt.

I cleaned all of the crud and water out of the cyls and filled them with oil, re-filled crankcase too. I then put the head back on.

The oil pump cover has the Chrysler penta star emblem on it, so not sure about that.

The vlave chamber was clean as a whistle, even the inside of the covers were clean.

Now could this engine still be rebuilt, or should I stick with a seoized 251 I also own.

I do not know if either block is cracked yet at this point...........Fred

Is there a question somewhere in this posting?

[RobertKB]

Fred, if the block of the 251 is no good or cracked, you can always use the crank and connecting rods in another block. You probably have all the parts you need to build a 251 with all the spare engines you have. Just because your 251 is stuck does not mean the block is no good. As has been mentioned, getting a block magnafluxed is a good investment.

[55 Fargo]

Is there a question somewhere in this posting?

Yah Don, both some ??and some info statements on the state of this engine, from my initial findings.

I am asking if this engine can still be rebuilt if rain water got into a couple of cyls via the exhaust manifold as the engine was lying outside in the elements.

I also want to know if the block had a weak mixture of coolant, would it crack the block in the winter freeze?

Basically I thought I was buying a 251 or a 265 as this engine was in a combine, but in reality it's a long block 218 by it's engine number, so I slickered myself, not blaming the old fellow I bought it from...

[dezeldoc]

Most times they will knock out the freeze plugs if they freeze up, and most times if it cracked from freezing their will be a visable crack on the outside of the block if it did not spit out the plugs.

[55 Fargo]

Thanx Deez, the freeze plugs weren't knocked out, nor was there any cracks on the outside of the block.

This engine may very well be okay, for rebuilding.

Do you think I should pull the head again, clean up the oil in the cyls and wirewheel everything out?

I am able to move the crank pulley about 2 inches or so, but it stops there.....Thanx Fred

[RobertKB]

If you can move the crank pulley a couple of inches my guess it is a stuck valve(s). Just keep working on it a bit at a time and it may free up. Put some diesel fuel or automatic transmission fluid down the cylinder and see if that helps over time.

[T120]

Hi Fred,I wouldn't claim to be "slickered" at $65 - If it doesn't suit you - I'm sure you can sell what you have and move on . I've spent more than that at times and thought the deal could have been better (in my favour,of course).But then, the agreement was made I've done it and I've moved on.(Note),I also don't have trouble sleeping at night...

[JerseyHarold]

Fred,

If you get any movement out of the motor at all, it's probably a stuck valve, as others have said. You may want to pull the head again and shoot some PB Blaster into the valve seats, let soak, then tap lightly with a brass hammer to loosen them up.

You definitely did not go wrong...just sounds like a little buyer's remorse, which is not unusual after buying something you don't ordinarily purchase.

I've got two beat-up, stuck flatheads in my garage, and I wouldn't sell them for twice what you paid.

[dezeldoc]

Norm, did i fail to mention i have a magnflux. out of the many motors i have rebuilt their have been very few that were cracked, the ones that were were know'n to have cracking issues in certain spots. also depends on where it is cracked if it is junk or not, a lot of cracks can be pinned or welded with no problems

[55 Fargo]

Hi Fred,I wouldn't claim to be "slickered" at $65 - If it doesn't suit you - I'm sure you can sell what you have and move on . I've spent more than that at times and thought the deal could have been better (in my favour,of course).But then, the agreement was made I've done it and I've moved on.(Note),I also don't have trouble sleeping at night...

I know it sounded like some "belly aching", I do not think for 1 minute the old guy slickered me, as he did not know the difference between the flathead displacements, he just knew it was a Mopar flat head, was a darn god engine, thats why he pulled it off the combine when he junked the machine.

He has stuff all over his farm yard, in the grass in the bush etc.

I will give you an example, he has a , complete, sitting in the grass and brush, it was his Aunts car, but it has been deterioating outside since about 1975.

He leaves most of his stuff outside, even though he has a garage and machine shed, which are full too.

I meant I slickered myself as I had my heart set on a 251 or 265 Indutrial flat head.

So I got another 218, no big deal, I have the water out of it, I cleaned the outside, and the cylinders are soaking with oil right now, the whole engine is standing up, and is on a sheet of plywood, and is covered with a tarp, eventually it will be on an engine stand in my garage. I plan to dismantle it, and get to know these engines, I do have another 251 with a full flow oil filter in a car, it is seized, it was also rebuilt in 1956, with .030 over rings and/or psitons, everything else standard. The valve chambers are spotless on this engine too, and there appears to be no cylinder ridge either.

I had no trouble undoing the head bolts on both engines, which is not a bad sign.

I also have my 218 in my coupe which is running well at the moment, she leaks oil, but has great oil pressure and eccent compression.

I also have a 228 froma 1955 Fargo 1/2 ton, it is in decent running condition and was in use until 4 years ago, that one I could pull out the water tube with ease, and it was very clean inside, but I do not the compression or oil pressure on it.

So I have 4 flathead engines 2 are running engines, 2 are neeed of rebuild......Fred

[55 Fargo]

Fred,

If you get any movement out of the motor at all, it's probably a stuck valve, as others have said. You may want to pull the head again and shoot some PB Blaster into the valve seats, let soak, then tap lightly with a brass hammer to loosen them up.

You definitely did not go wrong...just sounds like a little buyer's remorse, which is not unusual after buying something you don't ordinarily purchase.

I've got two beat-up, stuck flatheads in my garage, and I wouldn't sell them for twice what you paid.

Thanx Harold, I think it sia stuck valve to, will try your suggestion, right now it is soaking with oil in the cylinders and I poured some all over the valves too, hopefully I will free them up, then will clean up the mess, and see what I got.....Fred

[T120]

..It's all about having fun with the things that interest us

[knighthawk]

I bought a 1936 F-12 Farmall (about 20 years ago) , it was sitting in a farmers yard for about 20 years under the big Oak tree. It was froze up too. Took most of the winter to get it freed up, fired it up and the acorns and grass flew out of the exhaust ! Anyway, it had cracks in the head and block. I repaired them with cast iron plugs and a little block sealer,,used that tractor for a few years after that. Point is , I guess, is how bad you want that motor ! I don't think it would worth building a race engine out of it , with out doing the magnaflux thingy.

[55 Fargo]

Fred, rock the crank back and forth, if it has rust in the cyls it will lock it up. if it is not to bad a lot of times rocking it back and forth will break the rust loose. i would have left the head off and wire wheeled the rust out as much as possible then oiled it up and rocked it back and forth, got it turning over then cleaned the rest of the rust out. they will run after being rusted as long as nothing is wrong in the bottom end.

Norm, i can tell if a motor needs rebuilt or not, as for finding cracks that is where the magnuflux comes in, no other reason to mag a block but to check for cracks.

Let engine soak for 24 hours with oil in each cylinder, the crank is turning, the pistons moving, but still a bit stuck, must be a valve sticking.

Will let soak till tommorow and will see what is what.

I will then measure the cyls for size to see what is in there for piston size.

Up here in Winnipeg, in the 50s/60s/70s they use to rebuild a lot of these engines, all the blocks would get 251 cranks and pistons, then they would be sold as an industrial 6 cyl engine, this might be such an engine, even though it started out from the factory as a 218 long block, more will be revealed tomorrow...........Fred ps kinda like working on these engines....

[JerseyHarold]

Try taking off the side covers and shoot some penetrating oil on the valves and lifters. It can't hurt.

[55 Fargo]

Update:

This engine is no good, the cyls are way too rusty ona couple of them.

The measurements indcate 3 7/16 bore, 4 1/4 storke, so it is not a 218 anymore, possibly a 228.

The head is from more modern engine, with the hump for internal water pump by-pass.

What a shame, if this engine would not have gotten water into it, it would have no doubt been a good little engine.

I will salvage what I can off of it, lik valve covers, oil pan, dizzy alternator bracket,head, maybe internals like cam and crank.

I will now concentrate on my 251 full flow engine, it is stuck, butr the cyls look in good shape, it was rebuilt once with .030 pistons/rings.

I filled each cyl with oil on this 251, but lots has leaked past into the oil pan.

I can rebuild this into a bit of a high-perf 251.........live and learn

[james curl]

How deep are the rust pits in the cylinders? To deep to clean up when bored to .060 oversize?