Chrysler shuts down! O/T

[brian hood]

Well I hope the "Powers that be" are happy with the mess that could have been avoided! It makes me soooo angry.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081217/bs_nm/us_chrysler_shutdown

[Dennis Hemingway]

I just heard that on the news. The newscaster said that Chevy and Ford are going to follow.

Dennis:cool:

[dezeldoc]

That sucks, wonder what that will do to the warranty on my truck.

[steveplym]

Doesn't look like they are going out of business yet, just shutting down for the month. After I read that the Senate was going to approve the bailout if the UAW agreed to lower wages to compare with Hyundai and Toyota type manufacturers, and they flatly said no way.

If they want taxpayers money they need to make some adjustments too. I think a bailout would have just prolonged the inevitable, and they will have to file chapter 11 anyway.

[martybose]

Doesn't look like they are going out of business yet, just shutting down for the month. After I read that the Senate was going to approve the bailout if the UAW agreed to lower wages to compare with Hyundai and Toyota type manufacturers, and they flatly said no way.

If they want taxpayers money they need to make some adjustments too. I think a bailout would have just prolonged the inevitable, and they will have to file chapter 11 anyway.

I'm no fan of the UAW (I belonged to it for 7 years right after I got out of the Navy; cured me of any interest in union work), but it should be noted that the UAW already has a two tier salary structure where new hires start at much lower wages and aren't eligible for the benefits that older members get.

I don't know if the new wage structure is similar to the captive foreign employees, but I'll bet it's not too far off. Having been involved in manufacturing scenarios for several decades, I can't see anyone wanting their kids to become assembly line workers anymore.

Marty

[greg g]

If it makes you feel any better Toyota is stopping production till the new year here and in Japan. Most of the bigs have in excess of 90 days inventory not yet delivered to dealers, and most dealers might just as well be open from 10 to 2 with 11 to 1 off for lunch. It actually a great time to buy a new vehicle if you have a job.

[brian hood]

My dad was a union member for 31 years. I too can see the faults of the Union. I think someone should have realized, a little cut in pay is better than no pay! It breaks my heart that somewhere out there a family will shorten their Holiday cheer all because some Big Wigs, politicians, and Blue collar workers can not agree to terms. This will be further reaching. Whats next, Bankruptcy? I am very worried.

[Norm's Coupe]

I wouldn't get too excited about the possibility of Chrysler closing its doors yet just because they shut down for a month. The Chrysler engine plant was due to start a 3 week shut down anyway the beginning of next week, before all this bailout talk started. All they did was extend the scheduled shutdown another week to use up inventory.

As for auto plants shutting down. They have a long history of shutting down a couple of weeks in the summer and a week or two about this time of year anyway. My father retired from Ford. Use to save his vacation time and take it during the shut down. That way he got his full pay while on shut down. So.......while the auto makers may be having hard times now, the 2 to 4 week shutdown is not unheard of, even in good times.

[Young Ed]

I thought the article said the workers still get paid even for not working?

[martybose]

I thought the article said the workers still get paid even for not working?

That's one of the benefits that new workers haven't been eligible for in recent years.

Marty

[Norm's Coupe]

Ed,

Marty is correct. The auto workers do get paid now. However, my father didn't when he worked there. He retired from Ford back in 1968 or 69. There's been a lot of changes since then. When my father worked there you either had to use your vacation time to get paid your regular salary, or go on unemployment during the shut down. Since the unemployment pay was very low, he'd save his vacation time. Then if he ended up with extra vacation time, he could then take his extra vacation pay for that week or two, keep working during his vacation and get overtime pay for the whole week.

[wilmot andy]

I'm a union member, not the autoworkers, but I get so upset at everyone blaming the union. We have a Chrysler plant here in Kenosha, and the paper said something like 1.4 million in wages for the union workers. What do you think the top 5 execs got at the plant? Probably real close to the same. The unions backed Obama, and he hasn't picked a labor cabinet member yet, seeing that the country depends on labor, not just union labor, that should have been one of the first important picks. Another way to bust unions by placing the blame on them. They may desrve part of the blame, but how about the execs. Then the big three were only building what the public wanted, SUV's and trucks. I like all the public outcry against the $700 billion to banks and Wall Street, yet a $25 billion LOAN to the 2nd largest industry in America? Lets have more beaurocracy and put a 'Car Czar' in the white house to oversee it, and I bet he'll have an engineering backround too!

[Norm's Coupe]

I'm a union member, not the autoworkers, but I get so upset at everyone blaming the union. We have a Chrysler plant here in Kenosha, and the paper said something like 1.4 million in wages for the union workers. What do you think the top 5 execs got at the plant? Probably real close to the same. The unions backed Obama, and he hasn't picked a labor cabinet member yet, seeing that the country depends on labor, not just union labor, that should have been one of the first important picks. Another way to bust unions by placing the blame on them. They may desrve part of the blame, but how about the execs. Then the big three were only building what the public wanted, SUV's and trucks. I like all the public outcry against the $700 billion to banks and Wall Street, yet a $25 billion LOAN to the 2nd largest industry in America? Lets have more beaurocracy and put a 'Car Czar' in the white house to oversee it, and I bet he'll have an engineering backround too!

I agree. The problems we are having today are not all caused by unions. Actually, if it wasn't for the big union contracts won over the years people that are non union would not have the benefits they have today. The non union jobs have to provide some of the same benefits in order to compete for employees. In fact, if I'm not mistaking the first companies to give health benefits were automakers and possibly the steel industry because the union won it in their contracts. That's benefited all of us over the years, union worker or not. Vacation time and wages are others everyone has benefited from. Also, before unions an employer could demand you work as many hours as he wanted to or you lost your job. Today, it's just 40 hours a week, and you can thank the union for that benefit as well.

That said, I'm not pro union or pro management. After all there are a lot of things that is not good in a union contract, as well as management and Wall Street. It's a case of too much greed on both sides in my opinion. To get us out of this mess we now all have to sit down and butt heads and come up with a good solution for all concerned, not fight one another.

For the record, I've never been in any union.

[knighthawk]

I got a couple thoughts here ; first, I retired with 30 years in the union, at age 52, and I know I wouldn't have been able to do it without them , second, if all the big excexutives (car company officers) gave back what they took from the companys for just 1 year, they would NOT be in det !........finanilly, what are all you dedecated MO Par guys going to do when you have to become 50% CHEVROLET bow tie guys ???

[blueskies]

Here's a tidbit from Forbes thats going around the e-mail circuit...

According to Forbes:**

** Labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers.**

** Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)**

** GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)**

** Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)**

** Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in ****U.S.****): $48.00 ($96,000 per

year)**

** According to AAUP and IES, the average annual compensation for a

college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of

$73,207 + 27% benefits).**

** Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns

57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a

Ph.D., and 52.6% more than the average worker at ****Toyota****, Honda

or Nissan.**

**Many industry analysts say the ****Detroit**** Three, must be on par

with ****Toyota**** and Honda to survive. This year's contract, they

say, must be "transformational" in reducing pension and health care

costs.**

**What would "transformational" mean? One way to think about

"transformational" would mean that UAW workers, most with a high

school diploma, would have to accept compensation equal to that of the

average university professor with a PhD.**

**Then there's the "Job Bank" **

** When a D3 (****Detroit**** 3 carmaker) lays an employee off, that

employee continues to receive all benefits - medical, retirement,

etc., etc., PLUS an hourly wage of $31/hour.**

[wilmot andy]

Not true, another lie pushed around by the media. That figure includes retirees benefits. Is it fair to take away someones retirement benefit after they earned it after 30+ years of work? Heres the link, http://mediamatters.org/items/200812060002

Heres a better one, from the UAW. Interesting that avaerage labor cost for a vehicle is $2400, and look at the execs cut. http://www.uaw.org/barg/072/barg072_complete.pdf

[Norm's Coupe]

finanilly, what are all you dedecated MO Par guys going to do when you have to become 50% CHEVROLET bow tie guys ???

Speaking for myself only here.

What would I do if Chrysler went belly up? Nothing. While I'm not a dedicated Mopar guy, I do love those Bow Ties. I don't own a modern Mopar. My two modern vehicles are my Chevy van and my wife's little Kia. The only Mopar I have is my 48 Plymouth Coupe.

That said, I don't want to see any of the "Big Three" bite the dust.

PETE'S POSTING OF THE FORBES ARTICLE HE FOUND:

In reply to that, I have to ask the following.

1) Where does it say a person working in an auto plant shouldn't make as much as a college professor, or other profession where one needed a college degree?

2) Is the college professor or engineer, etc. any better than the average guy working in an auto plant (or similar job)?

Regardless of education one attains, it doesn't make him a better person or mean that person should earn more money than the worker who didn't go to college. Lets face it. The worker on the assembly line (or other job where a degree isn't required) is just as important as any other job, including that of the CEO of a company. That's simply because the CEO or other profession requiring a degree wouldn't have a job if it were not for the people without a degree. Someone has to physically do the work and make the product. That's called the trades people degree or no degree. Pete, just think if there were no carpenters. bricklayers, plumbers or electricians. You wouldn't be able to plan a building, therefore, you wouldn't have a profession or job either, because they must build what you draw. Do you want to build it and do all those things required to build it? So..........I see nothing wrong with them getting a good salary as good as the people who went to college. Someone has to get their hands dirty, we can't have all chief's and no Indians, then nothing would get done. I've always said the floor sweeper is just as important as the guy at the top.

As for that $31 per hour. That usually includes the cost to the company for all benefits, plus their salary, and take home is far lower even before taxes are deducted.

I also hear people saying I'm a professional because I have a degree in whatever and that guy working on my car or house is just a blue collar worker. Well.........the guy working on the house may not wear a tie like the "professional" to work like "professional" does. But..........the guy working on the house is also a "professional" in his trade. A trade is just as important as a college degree. In fact, that college degree doesn't make a person qualified to do the job. All you get in college is a "basic working knowledge". In the real world you have to also know about what the company is manufacturing and you can't get that knowledge in college. That only comes from OJT, just like the worker gets without a degree when he starts with a new employer.

Sorry for going off the deep end on this. It's just that every time I see something like that article, or hear someone saying something similar it sets me off.

[greg g]

I doubt very much that there is an one working the line at any of the automakers that is taking home 100K plus. Most of them are in the 30 dollar per hour range times 2080 makes for about 70K less taxes, dues and health insurance costs, the average worker is probably bringing about 50K home. Solidly middle class (at least for now). However, onthe employers side, matching healt care costs, paying unemployment, workers comp, making payments toward current employee retirement plans, etc adds about 35% of additonal cost, so now the guy on the line is costing close 50 bucks an hour.

Then add in the cost of paying for retirees health insurance and pension payments, now you at the 70 dollar level forbes is mentioning. So turn on the lights and run the plant and each body is costing your labor expense line 70 bucks per hour.

Now the foriegn makers doing business here, dont have those addtional cost, because they arent paying employess who left the building 20 to 30 years ago. And they will be under it in 30 years because they negotiated a different deal with their employees. Plus their relatively new folks started for less the the UAW rate in Detroit. but their perpson cost on the labor floor is in teh 45 dollar range.

[Captain Neon]

It's not uncommon to have a seasonal shut-down in many industries. If people aren't buying your product and you have good inventory, it only makes sense to idle a facility. There's no reason that during that time they aren't doing extensive preventative maintenance, and contract work.

I would welcome a few week's shutdown at my plant so that maintenance can get in here and fix all of the things that are cobbled together just to keep running. We've been running the wheels off this place running seven days/week. No time for PM and its ending up hurting efficiencies and quality. We are shutting down for five days for Christmas, but it only amounts to a three day weekend for maintenance to do their magic.

From a management standpoint, paying idle labour during upgrades and necessary maintenance is a small price to pay vs. the cost of scrapping out of specification product or serious breakdowns from lack of proper PM.

Smart business decision on Chrysler's part. I wish that I could buy Cerberus or Chrysler stock. I would add it to my shares of Ford and GM. The Japs are doing the same. I would be concerned if they kept running despite their full inventories. From a consumer stand-point, the only guy getting burned is the guy who has an unfilled special order. He's gotta wait an extra month for his Charger.

[greg g]

What I don't get is why they agreed to pay people 80% of thier wages during this shyt down. When I worked at a college, we laid off our service people during the long semester breaks and summer. They would be eligable fo unemployment, and we would continue their benefits through the period. I can't see how shutting down for a month, and only saving 20% on active labor. Good for the workers but doesn't make much sense cost wise except for materials and utilities which i guess would be a good sum. but labor is still their biggest single cost line.

[Norm's Coupe]

What I don't get is why they agreed to pay people 80% of thier wages during this shyt down. When I worked at a college, we laid off our service people during the long semester breaks and summer. They would be eligable fo unemployment, and we would continue their benefits through the period. I can't see how shutting down for a month, and only saving 20% on active labor. Good for the workers but doesn't make much sense cost wise except for materials and utilities which i guess would be a good sum. but labor is still their biggest single cost line.

Greg,

I'm not sure how college's pay their employees. But.........In public schools everyone is paid an annual salary. Then each employee has their choice as to how they want to get their salary paid. They can either have their annual pay divided by 12 and get that as a monthly salary, or they can divide it by 9 and get a higher amount each month. If they take the 9 month option, they don't get paid for the summer break. If they take the 12 month option, they get a monthly check even when on summer break. Either way, they are still getting paid for the summer break they don't work.

[greg g]

but their salary is based on a 9 month work year either devided by 9 or 12 We ran the non acedemic support services for the campus, Books store and dining services were our largest departments, these folks were hired for the acedemic year, if we had business durig the summer they were scheduled as need by seniority, as needed.

So our labor costs were based on when we had business, or were selling things.

[tinlizzy]

I think I read that right on the first insert. Chrysler is private ownership meaning no public traded stock. So are we now going to use our tax dollars to support a private company? GM and Ford are owned by shareholders meaning we can buy stock if we want. Chrysler is owned by an individual who has said he doesn't intend to loan his own company any of his own money to keep it afloat. Why should we line his pockets at the expense of us all?

My 2 cents

I work at a paper mill and we are now shutting down a week without pay so they can show the industry they can control the cost of paper. Wow that really helps me doesn't it. Week off at Christmas no pay just so some idiot in control can flex his muscles. What happens when they want to restart and all the lines are frozen because they never took the time to do maint. on them before they shut it all down. Real Smart isn't it.

[Tom Skinner]

Ditto Norms Coupe,

I know guys that never finished High School that own their own businesses

that make $200,000 to $300,000 per year. Truckers and Brick Masons.

Its called having a good money and business sense and hard work.

I finished my college degree at 40, I am now 52 work in an office and do quite

well. The only thing college taught me was how to be a good subordinate.

Let all the high brow college educated people unplug themselves from their embilical cords and go start their own businesses if they are so wonderful.

Tradesmen like me still consider ouselves (former Carpenter) earning a deserved good salary also. Lets stop being devisive and pull together like a team.

Like real Americans did, and should still do, or we will all go down the toilet together. As of the Forum last week I understood Toyota employees got @

$48/Hour so if Chrysler is @50/Hour thats pretty close.

The problem with Americans is we do not stick together anymore, like

buying American Cars, Products, Etc. and because of say 20-30 years of that practice along with College Educated Administrative CEO's sending all our jobs overseas, we will surely have our behinds kicked soundly, economically,

for however long it takes to learn this simple lesson.

Long Live Chrysler! Walter is probably spinning in his grave right now watching

what a bunch of panty waisted little hand wringing wash women we have all become instead of pulling together like a team. Lord Byron said it well:

Wealth makes Cowards, of us All.

May God help us.

Tom Skinner

Huntersville NC

[Phil Martin]

I think if the taxpayers bail them out they should shut down plants in Mexico and canada and bring those jobs back to USA