How do I know if I killed my starter?

[fadingfastsd]

Hey guys,

I need to get the Plym back up and running this weekend.

I'm running out of ideas on getting it started, I've tried just about anything.

If any of you guys in are in San Diego or close areas and would be willing to give me a hand getting this thing running this weekend, I'll pay gas money, beer, food, anything to have some knowledgeable help!

I've gotta get it back up and running so I can move it out of the driveway...my roomates are about to kill me!

---

anyways, on topic:

How do I tell if I killed my starter? Trying to get the new engine up and running the last couple weeks, I think I may have fried it. I had the battery tested, and it is just fine. 6v, supposed to be around 625 cranking amps, but the tester at napa measured 595 which I assume is ok.

I also just put on all new large cables on the battery and from the starter to the solenoid.

Trying to crank the engine, I get about one good turn out of it, before it bogs, it then struggles and will turn very slowly. I think I finally have my timing issues sorted out, and if I could just get a good solid couple cranks it should be ready to run (I think).

Anyways, after testing the battery and putting on new cables, I tried bypassing the solenoid, and shorting the starter cable to the battery, and it still cranks too slow. Also, before the slow cranking started, the starter seemed to slip and just spin right before the engine caught and fired each time. I'm wondering if I damaged anything?

I measured the resistance from the battery (+ terminal, ground) to the post on the starter (which is wired to the solenoid). I measured a short there. Shouldn't this be somewhere in the hundreds or thousands of Ohms through the windings in the starter motor? I'm wondering if I burned up the starter with all the constant cranking trying to get the motor running.

Anyways, if anybody can give me a hand I'd really appreciate it. I still may have a timing issue, but this combined with an electrical or starter motor issues, I'm just getting frustrated and running out of ideas!

Thanks!

Evan

[Lou Earle]

put a12 volt battery in her and try and crank it- just keep all light heater and raido off. running it on 12 volts for an hour will not hurt it. If it starts run it a few minutes then turn it off and put 6 v back in and try- sure sound to me like a bad cell inthe battery

Lou

[Brendan D25]

When you say new engine, is it a rebuild? If so it could be tight. Take the sparkplugs out and pour a small drop of oil in each cylinder and see what happens. If not rebuilt, has it been lying up for awhile? And as Lou said try 12 volts and make sure radio and lights are off. Good Luck, Brendan.

[james curl]

Hook the out put side of the solenoid to the twelve volt battery with jumper cables and the ground to the body then touch the loose end of the cable to the positive post on the twelve volt battery to engerize the starter. Now twelve volts are only going to the starter and every thing else is still six volts unless you mash the starter button. By doing it this way you do not need to mash the starter buttom because the cable on the output side goes straight to the starter.

[fadingfastsd]

Got a quick update for you guys!

Thanks for the tips, I went out, hooked up 12v battery out of my F150, and she fired up in 2 cranks!

Looks like it was the. It showed a good charge on the surface, but I think it couldn't support driving the starter. So I'm gonna head down to NAPA and grab a new 6v. Got the clutch hooked back up, e-brake set up, gotta cut off the rest of the old exhaust, and shes almost ready to go!

Thanks again!

[steveplym]

Glad you figured it out. So is the engine running good now and you got your timing issues ironed out?

[fadingfastsd]

The Plymouth is back alive and almost ready to roll!

Here's a vid:

And a few pics:

Thanks to everybody for the help & advice!

[steveplym]

Sounds great and looks great with the new intake and dual carbs. Congrats on the new motor.

[Normspeed]

She sounds great!

I agree, your starter is cranking awfully slow. You might try shortening up on that negative battery cable. That's just unneeded resistance.

[mackster]

IT SOUNDS AWESOME, kinda like NORMSPEED's wagon....Can you say "BIG WEST COAST RACE" ??????????

[fadingfastsd]

Thanks again guys.

Any ideas on exhaust?

She's going in today to get the exhaust done and I'm still not sure what to do.

I was thinkig lake pipes??

[Normspeed]

I run a 2 into 1 setup off a split manifold, with 2 1/4" pipe all the way back and a single Flowmaster towards the back. Sounds good.

[mackster]

I run a 2 into 1 setup off a split manifold, with 2 1/4" pipe all the way back and a single Flowmaster towards the back. Sounds good.

sounds better than good...get the same set up Evan you will love it!.....

[Phil Martin]

Those little lights on the front look red in pic. That would be illegal.

[Young Ed]

They look red but I think they are really orange. I've seen similar ones before

[fadingfastsd]

Those little lights on the front look red in pic. That would be illegal.

Nope its just the picture. They are completely orange.

I haven't had any problems with them so far.

They're not gonna be on there for too much longer though...pretty ugly I think.

[Brandon S]

^{Saw this post and I am exactly where Evan is when he started.  Fresh engine rebuild, just had starter bench tested, and dropped in a new 6V battery today after the one from Antique Battery had a bad cell (the new one cost 1/3 the price!) then it cranked a few times over the course of 5 minutes (started out with 4 cranks then down to barely one ) before I smelled something and saw smoke coming out of the starter plus the one gauge cable was REALLY hot.  Had the static timing set (I think) and prior urned over the engine with a manual crank until I got oil pressure but now this.  Going to the garage floor to pull the starter for a damage assesment.   Seems this never ends- 15 months now to this point.  Morale at all time low....}

Edited August 1, 2013 by Brandon S

[Greenbomb]

Whatever else is wrong, put in bigger battery cables. Try to scrounge up some 4/0 welding cable and new ends. Take it all down to your local electrical distributor and have them crimp the new ends on using a real true made-for-the-purpose regulation electrical crimper. That will assure that the crimp will be right. You don't want it too loose, nor too tight. One is as bad as the other. Remember, the 6 volt system has twice as much current (amps) as the 12 volt system, so you'll need much larger cables. And make sure all connections are clean and tight, paying special attention to the grounds.

[Brandon S]

Thanks for answering.  I do have the 1-gauge OEM wires from Andy Bernbaum.  Talking to the starter guy, I think the torque on the 71-year old starter was not enough to turn the freshly rebuilt engine, which was rather tight, and it burned it out..  I think I need to hook up the 12-volt battery and get it cranked first.

[wings515]

Go to Harbor Freight and get one of those $3 volt meters. Place the probes on the battery terminals and crank the engine over. This will tell you the 'loaded' battery voltage. If it stays somewhere around 5 volts loaded then move the negative lead of the voltmeter to the battery side of the solenoid. Again crank and check voltage. Now move the voltmeter lead to the starter side of the solenoid. Each time you will see a lower voltage than the battery. This will tell you if there is a big drop on each of the segments. To determine if the cables are at fault, place one lead of the voltmeter on the negative terminal of the battery and the other lead on the starter solenoid. Crank and measure the voltage. It should be in the range of 1-20 millivolts. Do the same thing for the ground cable. It should be the same as the Negative cable. If there is a large variation, one of the cables or connectors is bad.

I just did this on my PT81 and had to change the ground cable. I was able to find a battery lug and a chassis lug that you heated with a torch and the internal solder melted and created a good joint to the battery cable. Found these at my local NAPA dealer.

I ended up having my starter re-built for $150 and now it cranks like a brand new starter.

[Don Coatney]

Thanks for answering.  I do have the 1-gauge OEM wires from Andy Bernbaum.  Talking to the starter guy, I think the torque on the 71-year old starter was not enough to turn the freshly rebuilt engine, which was rather tight, and it burned it out..  I think I need to hook up the 12-volt battery and get it cranked first.

This starter worked when the engine was new and it should work now. After your engine was rebuilt your engine should rotate freely unless comething is buinding.

[Tones52]

I'm also trying to troubleshoot my sudenly non starting 52 Plymouth. In case I fried my starter, I do have a a spare that the PO gave me  which was supposed to be good. So in case I need to swap out starters, I took the spare to the good folks at Ed's Auto Parts (my go to old school auto parts store) who offered to test it for me using a large 6 volt battery on their shelf.

 

The good news was that the starter motor turned but possible bad news is that the bendix gear didn't kick out or recess back in. The guy from Ed's wasn't sure if this is normal for this vintage of a starter. And I'm a novice so what do I know?  LOL

 

If someone can tell me if the bendix gear being like this is normal or not, that would be help.

 

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While at the auto parts store I also had them check my Optima Red Top 6 volt battery and it was not showing as fully charged as I had thought. It didn't show that it was defective either so I'm putting that on the charger for overnight and will go back and have it retested. That battery is about 4 years old now.

 

So the next steps plan is to make sure I have a fully charged battery even if it means buying one. Then look up all the troubleshooting tips I can.

 

Thanks in advance for the starter help.

 

Tony

[Niel Hoback]

The gear should move freely in and out using your fingers. Initial spin of the armature causes the gear to move out while the speed of the flywheel on firing spins the gear back in. If it doesn't move easily, take the rear housing of and LIGHTLY lube the shaft so the gear moves easily.

[Tones52]

Thanks Niel. It seems like there's a bit of movement of that bendix gear when I try to move it with my fingers but there's a lot of resistance.

 

I'll look to lube it as you suggested. Is there a particular lubricant that would work best?

[soth122003]

As far as your starter goes, you might want to check the bearings at the ends. one of mine was worn and caused the armature to drag. As far as starter drop out, if the flywheel turns faster than the starter, like when it tries to fire but doesn't the starter will drop out and whine. My Plymouth does this sometimes. It's normal according to the manual.

 

Joe