timkingsbury

Sadly this is an idea that may work with other engines, but it most certainly does not work with the flathead. We have done extensive tests. Shortly I will do a complete blog entry on it. But the short version is that when an engine 1st starts up the temperature of the water/antifreeze is the outside air temperature. I dont want to get into a big technical arguement as I know at minus 46 degrees the antifreeze isnt minus 46 so save the comment. Are the water is moved by this plate at start up you are actually drawing heat away from the intake. Heat that even with the split i the exhaust is naturally coming from the exhaust and hitting the intake. Now headers made from stock exhaust actually have a closer profile to the intake than does say fentons, so there is more heat coming from them. But with the water heat attached you have no positive effect until the engine has actually reached close to or reached operating temperature. My then you dont need it. Prior to that point you are actually drawing temperature away from the intake. I can say that with absolute certainty. I have tested it at multiple temperature ranges. Just like I have with the couple of generations of edmunds that offered water heating. So save your time and money. It doesnt work as one might expect and the icing of carbs, Ive heard this story many times and have see many cars do it, but none where flathead mopars until we are talking very cold temperatures which there are some on the forum that drive in them. Absolutely no doubt about that. In that case split your exhaust internally and leave it connected to the intake.

Well here is the wiring diagram (courtesy of George Asche. Yes bypassing the circuit certainly tells you whether that was an issue. The electronic ignition by itself really doesnt have anything to do with anything assuming everything is wired correctly. Ill drop you a pm.

Here is what we use in every vintage overdrive transmission (R6, R7 , R10G1) and every straight vintage 3 speed, 4 speed and yes even the 5 speeds in our heavy 1952-1956 Dodge trucks. We have trannys with over 100,000 miles on them using it, as would the recognized expert in vintage trannys George Asche. He has taken apart a tranny with tens of thousands of miles on it using Fuel Synthetic oil that yes is really designed for Diesel engines and the internals were perfect.

While a pre oil pump or sump design is certainly an improvement, its over kill and definitely not anything your going to need. On pistons, again, for what your talking its over kill. Cast pistons with 4 rings are more than capable of running a couple of hundred thousand miles. Now in terms of original pistons and rings, well right off the bat it depends on what engine your talking about. There were forged pistons and cast pistons, as well as chrome rings and cast rings used over the decades in flathead mopars. But for a discussion on which is better, original 1930-1959 technology verses modern forged pistons and modern rings well there is little question which is better. We use custom pistons are rings all the time. The biggest issue is simple.. They are expensive. But in my 1949 Plymouth or our dragster, they are Venola Top Fuel Pistons, coated with plasma moly rings. They are smaller, lighter, stronger and.... expensive. I will attach a picture of a modern forged piston sitting beside an OEM 265 ci piston from 1954. The last 6 pictures are the pistons we had custom made for the 1933 Plymouth race car, and as you can see the rings are super thin. But back to your engine your describing, you dont need that. You should be able to do a rebuild with decent cast pistons, decent bearings etc and never have to rebuild it again. Even if you want to bore it out a bunch, regrind the cam to some mild custom grind, deck the block, shave the head etc, you dont need pre-oil pump and custom pistons. But then, lol, there is lots I dont really need but I have anyways, so by all means fill your boots.

The challenge he has is the same challenge I have on my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe, and that is the back air cleaner is so close to the firewall. The actual diameter of the air filter is actually only part of the equation when it comes to air filters. Its the total amount of square inches or square feet of media surface that is actually the key number. Obviously the larger the diameter and larger the height the more opportunity there is to utilize filter media. I mention that as on my car I am actually using a custom made filter media which has almost 3 times the total media area of the ones the owner of the 1933 Plymouth put on his car. Improving the air flow is one of the items on the agenda to improve on the car. With the help of a friend were actually working on off setting what are known as 7" round air cleaners. That being said there is nothing wrong with oval designed air cleaners. Would love to have a look at your creation.

A couple of still shots of the dragster and in answer to the question of how about some videos of it running. Well they will be coming and they do already exist, but for a couple of reasons, including an non-disclosure agreement we cant post them publicly at this point. Again, my apologies for the slight wavering from the original thread intent, but I really couldn't resist and have tried to also clarify the relative oiling points I think the originator of the thread was looking for. Tim

Hey John - Just to clarify as I sit here laughing while reading your post, I am definitely not taking over George's business or anything close to that. Ive know George for over 20 years. George has been building performance flathead engines for over 60 years. His 1929 Desoto which he still owns was undefeated at the Flying Mile on Daytona Beach in 1955 at 142 mph. That highly modified 265ci engine was built by George. George built the engines for his Uncle Harry Hiens who is in the nascar hall of fame. Those flathead engines were legendary for beating all kinds of v8s. My family background dates back to my Grandfather who worked for Chrysler starting in the 1930s, my Dad who was also an automotive engineer, who build flathead stock car engines in the 50s and 60s, later moving on to building engines for a number of well known top fuel racers. My background really pales in comparison to all of those, although have grown up around some of the best and brightest in the industry.While I do have an automotive engineering degree, it was definately not where the bulk of my career focused by any stretch. I did run a car in the pro stock class in the 1970s and owned the track record at Toronto International when it closed. While I helped build a couple of engines for that car, it was really as an assistant as it was primarily both of my grandfathers that were the primary builders along with my Dad. I have been fortunate to have known George Asche Jr and he and his family have enjoyed a special bond with my family for a long time. From that yes with George, my Dad Eddy along with a buddy I went to school with and myself we did come up with a couple of performance intakes. As you point out that is likely where George and I are likely better known and your also correct George would be pretty well known for his building of overdrives, carbs, linkage etc. But that really is a tip of the iceberg in many ways. George had built likely 50 performance engines since I have known him, and maybe that is a conservative number. In the last 5 years I know he has build 18 of them. Now I think its safe to say that he would say, as my Dad would have while he was still alive as I would, were always interested in learning more about flathead mopar engines, and improving them. None of use pretend to know everything about them in terms of improving their performance. That being said, let me say this about the topic of oiling. There are lots of things you can do to improve the oiling. 1st thing with any rebuild is to simply turn the two cam bearings from using the big hole, which is how they came from the factory, to using the small hole. There is way more oil hitting the cam than was ever needed. Next make sure you have good oil pressure, which really is a way of saying make sure you have a good oil pump. Yes there were higher volume oil pumps for trucks. Yes we try and use them on higher rpm builds but for 99% of every engine I hear being built its not required. I could go though a bunch of tips but unless your planning on spinning your engine above, let me peg it at 5000 rpm regularly and your running a long stroke engine, you dont need it. Use the small hole in the cam bearing, make sure your have a good oil pump and drive on drive on. In terms of a couple of race engines.. Attached are pictures of a 1933 Plymouth. Its spent its life as a road racer. It was highly competitive at the Brickyard at Indy and was a engine build by a well known engine builder. Its owner found out the hard way that yes there is a portion of the track with a bank on it, and as he rode up the bank to pass a Porsche and a Ferrari he lost oil pressure and it locked up. It literally bent a rod and another rod broke loose and went through the block. George was called on to build the new engine for the car, and what I will say is in this years season, the car which has always been competitive, rose up the ranks significantly and the performance improvements were categorized by its owner as "simply incredible how much additional power it has".. Here is was recently as it has finished off the race season and was brought back to George for some further improvements, including changing the fuel distribution, and changing the rear end gearing. This engine is capable of in excess of 6000rpm and of course another video of the AoK dragster (which for you trivia fans, AoK was a name George came up with.. It stands for Asche over Kingsbury).. and George's official answer to the question of - " how fast is that car".. Answer - "Its faster than the average Echo" Aka The Toyota Echo.. A couple of things off topic I like to note here putting to rest the myth that you need electronic ignition for a performance engine, this engine runs an original Chrysler dual point distributor with points! Yes its been modified, but there is no electronic ignition. Yes we also do have a magneto set up for the car to eliminate the battery but what we were puddling with here is trying to get the idle off of the stall which used to be around 2000 rpm. Now down to just over 1000 rpm, its quite easy to drive. Back to the oiling in the engine. Yes we grooved bearings, and did some internal drilling and modifications to get oil return. We have a windage tray with crank scrapers for pulling off oil as this engine spins well above 7000 rpm.

Well unfortunately my Canadian brother passed away long ago. Beyond that as I said these conversations usually just turn into someone doing exactly what you are doing, and costs me time and energy, and you clearly feel there is nothing wrong with that, like taking a shot at my family or Canadians or whatever point you were attempting to make. Like the reference of sbc chevy cam's suggesting the number of cams likely couldnt be beyond 8. Just on that topic, feel free to do your own research on just marine cams for small block chevys. All that being said, if you took the time just to see the wiki link with the shear number of different flathead 6 mopar engines, then gave it some thought about the shear number of applications the flathead mopar was used in, you should have already concluded that over 80 cam variations and not 8 would be very possible. The fact your reply was "when you have time send me a list of the variations of the first 80 cams......" my conclusion remains that it appears you were and are more interested in causing my work and taking shots than really trying to get information. As such, on this topic, I will not be participating any further.

Your close.. we were talking canadian 25 1/2" engines.. from 1935 to 1959. My Grandfather was hired by Walter Chrysler himself and was an Engineer. My Dad was an automotive engineer, worked on a ton of different chrysler engines, from flatheads to v8s to Hemis and over all kinds of applications and racing. He did not work for Chrysler. My Grandfather was the GM of the engine plant in Windsor Ontario. I do not have all of the stuff grandfather had.. I do have an entire room 12 x 24 feet, set up like a library with rows 8 feet high with documentation. When Grandfather retired, the flathead was no longer even remotely current and as part of his retirement package he was allowed to take home his personal library from the engine plant of all the obsolete stuff. Honestly I have no clue how much there is. its not dozens of manuals. Its not hundreds of manuals, its thousands. I would guess just his work diaries, notes, drawings etc would be several hundred thousands of pages. At one point he offered to give it all to the Chrysler Museum and they passed. He did donate about a couple of pallets of documentation.

Umm If I didnt say dont post that one the forum I should have and the reason being is almost every time it winds up costing me tons of time to defend the facts or winds up into a scrap which to be honest is why I stay off the forum as much as I can. The why are you here now.. well 8 members emailed me today and lol... dragged me back in. I also hate Wikepedia, but to save some time, here is the listing for just the car engines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_flathead_engine I haven't checked for accuracy but it shows 27 engines and I know from my Grandfathers documentation, just out of the Canadian Engine Plant starting in 1935 for the 1936 model year to the end of production in 1959 there were over 55 cams just for cars. On the truck side, there were specs for pickups and bigger trucks using the exact same engine, and then another cam change for those engines where they used multiple carbs. Aka 1952 265. Now ad over 37 different combination of the flathead 6 for marine, ranging from civilian to military to different variation for different countries depending on octane level. Next we have the agricultural sector which had combines for 4 different manufacturers, 6 swathers, 3 tractors and then different generations of those and you have a bunch more cams. Then there were water pumps, which used 11 different flatheads, welders with over 22 different flatheads, aircraft, welders, snowmobiles, tugs for aircraft, fork lifts, loaders and generators. There were 14 cams just for air compressors, some of which drove a compressor and some of which used some of the cylinders to produce air. On the miltary side absolutely ever engine had its one spec and cams. From cars, trucks, power wagons, heck even tanks. The reality is we have the specs we can grind over 80 different cams, it is not there were over 80 different cams.. Hell I havent even counted it but its several hundred different cams for flatheads. Go find any engine in history that was used in more places than the flathead mopar 6 cylinder... If there is one, Its sure wont be a small block chevy.. Lol.. why do people this a small block chevy is the gold standard for anything ? Actually but since your on the topic.. Just for marine.. not talking whatever else a SBC is used for, but just marine, I could find 17 different cam specs. Im not picking on you but I did have to laugh.. 8.. There are at least 51 cam patterns just for the Canadian, USA, British, and Israel military just for the Canadian 25 1/2" engine.. Different hp, different octane, different fuel from gas to propane to some weird fuel requirements out on the field. I have no idea how many more there were for the USA side. I do agree there are lots of 25 1/2" still around which is amazing given the last one rolled out of the engine plant in Windsor before I was born in 1960. But the plant pretty much ran around the clock from 1952 to the switch over to the slant six in 1959.

This one was a Fenton "universal" floor shift conversion kit, that then someone adapted it for their purposes which was in a early 50s van, similar to this one which likely will be the 1st time this is seen in public! lol I believe this is similar to what my Dad did in his pickup although since I never say it together on a transmission that is pure speculation. If you have other floor shifter actually installed on Mopar 3 speed transmission that was previously a column shift, either already installed and happen to have pictures, or are working on one, or even have ideas, feel free to post away !

Another floor shift concept, that again, I need to do some digging and see where I got the concept.

This one was made by Ron Allworth who made this one for a buddy's 1933 Plymouth that he was putting a 270 hemi in it For this one of course it would not work on an r10g1 overdrive, although that is not to say they couldn't make one for that purpose. I just thought I would post it up as while a tad over engineered I thought it was very cool.

Howdy folks - Coming from another blog topic, which strayed down a back road, came the idea of transmissions for Mopar Cars and Trucks that were post 1940 that came with Column shift and the normally column shift transmission was modified or the linkage was to turn it into a 3 speed floor shift transmission. So this isn't about taking a vehicle that had column shift and putting a transmission for the 1930s or a modern floor shift transmission to make the vehicle floor shift. This is taking say a 1950s r10g1 overdrive and putting it into a 1930s car or a 1950s pickup and making it a floor shift. It could also be taking a standard 3 speed column shift and making it into a floor shift in that same vehicle. Its not a new concept by any stretch. My Dad put an r10g1 overdrive from a 1952 Plymouth into a 1951 Fargo pickup truck which had been a 3 speed column shift pickup. He had taken a Fenton floor shifter kit that was a kit to move column shifts and made a bunch of changes to get it to work. The truck is long gone but we actually recovered the shifter which had been cut off at some point by the person who got the pickup. I will take some pictures at some point for the fun of it. We got it moving again but it would be too expensive to try and duplicate. George has also built a very simplified for racing which is super simple, although I am not sure would work for regular street usage, and he also has one his Uncle Harry Hein's made but duplicating it, is a project that hasn't quite made it to the top of the pile. We also have several pictures of guys who have done them, although most are pretty heavily involved and some quite clunky looking. All that being said, the reason I started this was - Paul aka pflaming had posted a picture of his project of making a traditional 3 speed floor shift Plymouth transmission, and turning it into a floor shift, which really was the impetus for this blog idea. "The shifter I fabbed from a photo, not my design. It is uncomplicated and will serve my purposes very well. The tranny and OD are not on the engine yet."

Hey Paul - Its not the Kingsbury or Asche style to go bashing people and because it is our blog, I would prefer to exercise some tolerance and flexibility when in my mind its clear someone just wandered down the wrong road. As well the idea of floor shift concepts isn't a bad idea for a topic so I will start one. But no apologies required. Now lol, if it was a chevy part, or t5 suggestion, well I would likely be suggesting your in the wrong church!. Have a great one and good luck on the knee surgery. Tim & George

Lol, ok so it really doesn't have much to do with this thread. I likely should start a new topic on just floor shifts. In terms of the r10g1 I can price out all of that for you. Its likely not as bad as you think. Of course that will be column shift. My buddy George Asche has literally done hundreds of them. If they are decent rebuildable they cost $450 to rebuild + parts. What is included is new bearings, bushings and gaskets. I would guess its 80% + that George does for that. If gears are ground, or people want fast seconds or there are parts missing well that starts to add up. The wiring, George hand makes wiring harnesses for them, as he does for the earlier r7 or r6 of which there were the 1940 and earlier that are floor shft. But from kickdown switches, overdrive relays and options switches to put on a steering wheel or dash are all readily available NOS or brand new. In terms of the shifter in your picture, I think its going to be really close to the seat. But maybe your planning on buckets and want it way back. In terms of adding an overdrive behind your existing transmission, Ive seen over the years many try it and a few got it to work but they were always a lot of work , extra connection points, bracing or brackets and there maybe some out there but I never saw one that then had 20-30-50,000 miles + on them. But back to floor shift, there are always people looking to change a column shift setup to floor shift so I will start a thread and if you and others want a place to start documenting and discussing ideas, go for it! Tim

Not quite sure what this has to do with either the fluid drive bell housing or the a833 conversion, but hey .. its interesting. So in your picture are you saying that is a 3 speed transmission with a Volvo overdrive ? Or is the picture to illustrate making the standard tranny a floor shift ? I have no issue with your post, just trying to determine what your trying to illustrate here ?

Howdy 49BC - Actually it wont really be relevant in term of the adapter plate, although I expect it will fit on the bell housing. The issue is the a833 4speed does not have a long enough input shaft to work. On the overdrive front, we have done it many time to use the r10g1 overdrive from a 1952-56 Plymouth and then change the input shaft to a long input shaft and throw out bearing to work with the fluid drive situation. Whether there are long shafts available for the a833 I do not know, I do know guys have switched the Plymouth bellhousing to go with a standard transmission or overdrive but I honestly have no experience in terms of what is involved. I can try and find out for you. In the mean time, here is a picture of the r10g1 with the long shaft I was referring to.

Howdy Folks - I thought I would do an update on a few topics. 1st the most important one being my buddy George Asche Jr. George who was hospitalized a few months ago continues to be regaining his health at a rate I think everyone including he himself find remarkable. I was down last week and helped him build another engine and a bunch of other thing. He continues to work through a long list of promised work, from engines and over drives, to intake, carbs and linkage. The last AoK racing triple intake for the big blocks was finished and shipped out. It is going on a 1937 Chrysler 6 cylinder. A very close to stock engine, with standard pistons, cam and new undersized bearings. I have enclose a picture of that as well as George finishing off a fresh engine built and one of the AoK - George Asche Jr tribute intakes for the USA Small blocks. We down to just 1 or 2 of those . Next topic, intake updates: As I have talked earlier, with our good friend Tom ceasing operations we had to move the casting of both the Triples for the Canadian 25 1/2" big block flathead and the USA 23 1/2" dual carb intakes. We also sadly lost the services of George long time friend Bob Stover who was responsible for the machining of the AoK triples from when we 1st started to make them over a decade ago until God gave him the checkered flag and he passed away. Moving to a new supplier also saw cost increases. We have worked closely with both suppliers as well as looked at other options for having them cast and machined elsewhere. In the end, we were able to reduce the overall costs, and get the minimum order quantity down to the point that we are going to consider another run of intakes. Sorry Folks - Both AoK intakes are now sold out. If you would like to be on a waiting list you can email us at fargopickupking@yahoo.com Thanks Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr Below pictures are the AoK dual and triple intake that are being set up for the pre-WW2 cars ad all trucks, pickups and powerwagons which have linkage going down the intake/exhaust side of the blocks

Howdy Folks - Just thought I would put up a little update on the Flathead Mopar Grand Master - George Asche Jr. George is getting stronger every day and wants to say thank you for all the calls, cards and notes of support as well as the prayers from many. George has slowly been easing back into his shop and this week, along with his Son Rob was finishing off a full race motor that goes in a 1933 Plymouth. The Plymouths entire life has been as a race car, with a couple of stints in Museums. It recently has a major break down while up on a bank racing and its owner sought out George to do this build. Just a couple of shots of the build including, yes, those are custom Forged pistons, with plasma moly rings. If you look close you may notice the pistons actually have lasered serial number on each piston. The last couple of pictures is George building a pair of carbs on an AoK dual intake. He has the bases on, the linkage all made up and adjusted, and then continues the build. So he is back at it. There is no question its a new normal for George, but he loves doing it and so he is working through the back log of work he has agreed to do. Sadly, with 4 hi-performance engines and a ton of carb and/or linkage, and a few overdrives to rebuild he isn't taking on any new projects at this time. That may change down the road, but for now his plate is full! Sorry Folks - Both AoK intakes are now sold out. If you would like to be on a waiting list you can email us at fargopickupking@yahoo.com

Great to see you jumping into the blog-a-sphere. Looking forward to many great topics on the "Up and Coming Flathead Mopars"!

Howdy folks - Well I am down at George's this week and I have passed on the many notes of good wishes to him. The good news is he is actually up and cant move around on his own. The bad news is he is still very weak and definitely is not up to getting back to his bench and the hobby he loves so much. Definitely we can not take any more work on at this point, and we will have to see how this unfolds. He has several engine jobs ahead of him and a large about of carbs, linkages etc. His son's Rob and George III are swamped with the family business - Asche Mechanical which rebuilds starters, generators, alternators etc as its pretty much Spring in PA and they have a huge lineup of work ahead of them. So as of now 100% of the AoK intakes are done, machined and ready to ship. If you are already on the list for intake(s) we are working through the list contacting customers over the next while to give them updates. We do have a very few AoK dual intakes not spoken for, although I believe all of the triples are now spoke for. That may change as people on the waiting list of intakes are contacted. Beyond that, for the time being we can supply intakes, we can take your factory intake and make it into a dual intake or headers, but we wont able to take on any new orders for carbs, linkage, motors etc. We will keep you posted and definitely I can tell you George is looking forward to getting back to his bench, but right now he just isn't up to it. Tim

Interesting. Would love to see it when you come across it. The only stuff I have is shipping from Canada which even in the 1930s would make a lot more sense for UK than being shipped from the USA which would have seen a tariff attached. Even the convertibles which after 1936 were still made in the USA, shipped over to Canada from Detroit to Windsor and because the frame was made in Canada some how were exported as Canadian goods. Ive seen a few pieces of import paperwork from guys in England with 23 1/2" USA motors in Plymouths and a couple labelled as Dodges but were basically Plymouths.

Id love to see it as I have the 1936-40 factory documentation from the Canadian plant, and there are no overdrives in any of those Dodge or Plymouths. Definitely in Chrysler and Desotos and I am sure sold/shipped as parts. I cant speak to 1935.

Howdy Countrytravler - Cool finds. On the 38 and 40 Chrysler there are pictures of those trannys above in the spotters guide. There definitely both different from each other and if you need any information let me know. On the customers comment on 1935-40 Dodge and Plymouths, neither had overdrive trannys from the factory. Not USA, not Canadian, and not export models that I know of and I have a great deal of documentation. The overdrives were Chrysler and Desoto. Now, having said that I have a 1941 Plymouth that was a Canadian built car. Keep in mind that Canada entered WW2 in 1939, so there are 1939 and 1940 Plymouths, and there are some 1941 Dodges but there ar almost no 1941 Plymouths. My grandfather's brother was a Dr and he had applied for an got a permit for a car. He got the car, we still have the original bill of sale, the ownership and the serial numbers are match. The car has almost no miles on it. He volunteered went into WW2 and was killed. The car was parked in a barn that was severely damaged by Hurricane Hazel in the early 50s and the car was parked in the back lane at the farm I live at now. The trees and grown around it someone has removed tires and a over the decades pieces have grown legs. I will attach pictures. Everyone who knows anything about Plymouths will say - hey that is a 1946... or may call it a 1946 - 48.. It is not. The engine block cast date is Jan 10 1941. The serial numbers on the car, the engine all match what is on the original bill of sale. In that car is an overdrive and if your look closely in the interior there are gauging and a radio that was never offered. Its a Dr coupe and between the cabin and trunk is all wood. There is wood framing in the doors and that is 1920-30s stuff there is definitely no wood used in 1946 - 48. I mention this because I know for a fact it is as it came from the factory, yet not in 1940-41, not in 1946-48 were Plymouths offered with overdrives. they 1st appeared in 1952, actually were put in cars that were coming off the line in Canada in September of 1951 and I am sure many will love to debate me on my 1941 being authentic, although trust me if that car had stayed in the barn it would be worth a fortune... as it sits, well from a family standpoint its priceless but in monetary value its not worth much. But the point is there are examples of stuff coming from the factory that are not in brochures. My personal believe is given my Mothers father was the GM of the Canadian Engine plant from the time it opened in 1935 and he was there until the last flathead, actually the last hemi rolled off the line, that maybe he who was born less than 4 miles from my other Grandfather whose brother bought this Plymouth, that maybe, just maybe there was a little family connection action that got a car that just may have been a prototype that if there was no war, that may have come out in 1942. What I do know for a fact was the last overdrive was ordered very close to the death of Walter Chrysler in August 1940 and the last model year with overdrives was 1941. I also know that Overdrive trannys were available at Chrysler and Desoto dealerships in the way of parts, so is it possible someone took their Plymouth or Dodge into a dealership and get an overdrive put in it, oh I guarantee it was. In fact not far from me is a 1938 dodge. It has an overdrive from it. The family thought that is was purchased with the overdrive. My Dad's very good friend, owns today and his Dad 1st opened the Mopar dealership in Guelph in 1929. A few decades ago, the parts guy happened to come across a bunch of old records from the dealership and going through them didn't they find the record where the 1938 dodge was repaired in 1944 and with a lack of a transmission in stock and in the midst of WW2, an overdrive was put in the car. Its a piece of paper the family that owns the 1938 Dodge now very much treasures. So the long story is to say, that for most customers who thought Dodge and Plymouths had overdrives in them from 1935 - 1940 for the most part they are mistaken. The overdrive was only offered in the Chrysler and Desotos.... BUT..... if they pull out some documentation or a specific example would I be shocked.. No I would not.. Would I be surprised... yes, I would but then I know that in those days and through the 2nd world war a lot of things happened to just get by. In any case, good talking with you and if I can help in some way, let me know Tim