timkingsbury

An update folks - George is now back home from the hospital. He is quite weak, but is up and moving around. His daughter June is staying with him making meals etc and while its clearly taking longer for George to get back to himself than anticipated, for being 85 years young I guess its to be expected. I have passed on all the thoughts and notes from people and they are definitely appreciated. As it effects intakes, carbs and linkage, we do now have 100% of the dual and triple intakes back from the machine shop. I haven't been able to actually get down to George`s and start shipping out intakes to those who are just wanting intakes. On my end of the world, my Mom hasn't been well the last few weeks and I have been on stand by as she has been in the hospital and going through a bunch of tests etc. But I will be going down late this week or early next and get those moving. For those who have ordered intakes with carbs and or linkage obviously were in a holding pattern and I apologize for that. George has been pretty much been out of pocket for the last month and while we could enact a plan b, there is nothing like having the master building linkage and carbs so we would ask for and thank you for your continued patience. On numbers - the Aok triples for the 25 inch big blocks are now sold out. if you want to get your name on a waiting list in case someone bails or for a future run, send me an email to fargopickupking@yahoo.com On pricing, we will certainly be updating people as we have information, which is to say we wont be holding anyone to an order when or if there is a price increase without reconfirming. On the AoK dual intakes there are still a few not spoken for. I think its either 2 or 3. Once they are spoken for we will be in the same situation as with the triple talked about above. Tim

That is correct its principle reason is heat. Without them the fuel tends to percolate in the carbs. It also does help raise the carbs. If we had been able to find 2`inch phenolic washers or spacers we would have used them. The customer does not have the setup you see installed yet so we can not conclude that a further raising of the carbs might be required. The balance tube was used for multiple reasons. I provided a rise of the carbs above the actual intake which provided a) added torque b.) separated the exhaust heat which is always connected to the intake In your Fenton intake which is the same design as an Offy and D&S the issue is the carbs are way to low. and the square nature of its design being completely different than the mopar stock which nets that that intake tends to loose a great deal of torque while increasing RPM. I would suggest a block or spacer of at least 2`inches would be advisable if you were going to use that intake. I can also tell you that the internal round design of the factory intake is far superior to the fenton, offy and d&s design. Hope that helps answer your question.

I thought I would add this one to show you an example made "Down Under" by Andrew. He actually races this car and you can also see the handy work evident elsewhere under that engine compartment. Over the next few months we should have a comparison for you as in the next couple of weeks I will be boxing up an AoK triple to send to Australia. Its not the 1st that headed down under, but will be the 1st that replaces a home made triple on a full race motor. Of course as I said earlier 3 carbs on a rock stock original 1936 201 ci motor, with the right sized carbs way out performs both in power/torque and fuel economy, but in this case Andrew is chasing the edge of the envelope.

Ive read that your engine is 23" so it is made in the USA. There were never any 23" small blocks made in Canada, just as starting with the 1936 model year all 25" 6 cylinders were only made in Windsor Ontario Canada. If your car was a convertible, the ones sold in Canada were actually assembled in Detroit and all have 25" engines. The engine serial numbers are actually applied at the point its destination or purpose is determined. On the oil filler side down by the oil pan there will be a date code cast into the block. It is unusual to see DP or export cars/engines shown as manufactured in Canada with the USA engines. In fact almost a little suspicious, but I wonder if there was a export advantage to ship from Canada vs USA a that point. Certainly my family has pictures of the barges across the river between Detroit (USA) and Windsor (Canada) and cars being moved back and forth. The convertibles were the most frequent, but perhaps export cars were similar in nature. Very cool

Well Barb Good sleuthing. George hadn't been feeling 100% and yes the Doctor checking him in on the 24th. He is being treated, my Mother went through the same thing and with time and some diet changes (no nuts and some other things), lots of prayers and medical help he should be home soon. Believe me he is chomping on the bit to get back to his work bench. You are correct, on the intake front and more specifically on the carb and linkage front were in a bit of a holding pattern but don't anticipate it being a massive show stopper. I can report that as of now all of the AoK triples for the big blocks are spoken for. I can put your name on a waiting list In case anyone bails, but barring that all we can do is take names and if and when we have a price point to offer another round of them we can let you know, but right now I am afraid their out of production at least for now. On the dual intakes for the small blocks, we will have to wait until George is back hone to check a couple of notes he has on calls. I think there is 3-4 not spoken for but that is a guess and as Barb found out, unless you can produce rebuildable cores we cant supply anything beyond intakes and if you want it the linkage. There is the update. Will keep you posted Tim

Interesting. We have seen this concept quite a bit actually. On the exhaust pipe, cool factor is definitely there, although performance wise it will be little better than stock and it may even have a bigger back pressure imbalance. On the Intake again cool factor right up there. Performance wise carbs are too low, no effective balance tube or sufficient atomization area in the intake. My guess, having never seen it, is it has a bit more rev, looses a bunch of torque and likely tosses out raw fuel on a regular bases. So super cool to look at, but after that, it looses it for me pretty quick. Definitely appreciate seeing it just the same. Tim

We have been quizzed a few times this week about supply of intakes in the future and costing after the above blog entry said - "After that, there will be no more at this price point that is for sure and whether we have any more made with depend on customer demand. " I really don't want to harp on this too much but I will provide this explanation. We started into the project of creating a Dual Carb intake for the 23 1/2" USA small block now several years ago. We felt we could exploit all of the research, design, testing etc from the AoK triple intake for the 25 1/2" Canadian big block and really cut the cost to develop this intake by a bunch. While for reasons talked about before, the timing to get this from the drawing board to a prototype way exceeded expectations. Funny enough.. the actual cost to bring it to that point was right on budget. I know , good news right ! What did change for us was the production cost. Cost of supplies increased a lot. But that wasn't the big problem, nor was the unplanned costs to change some minor things. to the pattern to turn around the name and increase the size of the linkage block. The big issue was our good friend who has done all of our pattern work, and has casted the AoK triples for now 12 + years stopped doing it. He had lost his wife, a great deal of things have happened in his life and he sold everything and is out of the business. Next is the fact that while the projects hugely benefit by modern foam core molding and casting technology there are a very small amount of companies that will produce castings. If it was a sand cast or other casting technology there are tons of options. So imagine, we have all the patterns done, just need to get them casted and the 1st 3 companies our buddy recommended contacting told us.. "Sure we can do that for you. Love to, we have the expertise and we can start within the next 30 days"...... All good right... lol " On cost, well we need a minimum order quantity of 10,000 pieces" Yikes.. so the minimum order quantity ranged from 1000, to 10,000 pieces and the per piece cost ranged from $700 down to $390 per casting. Add heat treating, shipping to us, machining work to take castings to have them ready to go out the door and there is a lot of different steps. and our cost estimate on the cheapest side was $800 per. Oh and the machine shop that did our triples, he passed away so we needed to find another place to do it. Tilt.. yes, months ago this project was dead in the water. We couldn't lay out money to cast 10,000, hell we couldn't do it for 1000 pieces. We did finally find a supplier who would cast duals and triples in a lower quantity at least for a 1st run and did find a retired machinist who had access to all of the machines to do the project that got the intakes in our hands at a price we could live with. One of the big drivers was trying to get this project completed for George while he is very much involved with the hobby. We first had a dream to shoot for his 80th.. then this summer I had to make a decision whether we would get something done for his 85th birthday or risk having this go down in flames. To do it and an meet the demand of all the great people that have reserved an intake at a price point, I purchased the 1st one at a price that far exceeds what anyone is paying.. lol.. In other words folks.. without me doing that we would be loosing a lot of money on everyone we sell. So I purchased #1 and guess who has it... lol.. no, not me it was George's 85th birthday present. But the project is done, the dream has been realized. All of our family and friends who wanted one have or will get one and there were extra dual and triple intakes for sale. We are trying to find a more cost effective casting company, and we have shown our machinist buddy the casting invoicing. Were hoping now that he has done a bunch he may have a way to get them casting to ready to sell at a more cost effective price point. We are no factoring in 1 nickel for all the development and patterns either. This is just casting, heat treating, shipping, machining costs were talking, but if we cant do so at a tiny bit better than break even then, well were back to the start of this post. Right now the cost far exceeds our selling price and we will talk to customers, but I am not sure we have people wanting to pay much more. It really doesn't matter that its better than anything ever made, people have their price point and after that point they go in a different direction. We all get that and honestly its all good. We hope everyone who get one of these intakes enjoys them. I know the feedback over the years on the AoK triples has been incredible and for all those folks, thanks for being a part of the dream and the history of the AoK boys! Tim

Howdy Folks - On behalf of George Asche Jr - thank you one and all for the Birthday wishes. He has seen all of the notes on the thread and received a great number of calls wishing him well. He really was humbled by the shear volume and really did appreciate it. A few have sent me notes and of course those have been passed on. In a few of those notes was asking if George's uncle Harry is really still alive. Yes he is, yes he really is George's uncle.. and while he isn't a lot older than George, he is a bit older. He turns 88 on March 6th. I was down and spent some time at AoK world wide HQ, also known as George's house and shops.. While there we went down to "Uncle Harry's" and brought him up to Georges to inspect a new car George recently purchased. It is a 1929 Desoto 4 door, which is actually like the 1st car George ever owned. Ive updated this blog entry to add those pictures.. Harry and George beaming ear to ear over the new car. Also a rare shot over in the Asche Mechanical Shop with Harry, George Jr, George III and Rob also known as George's #1 and #2 son.. Lol.. you can ask George who #3 is if your ever talking to him. Harry was telling the boys about a legendary grudge race on a Nascar track between his #90 car with a flathead 265 that George had built vs a guy running a 392 Hemi. The punch line, yes Harry won the race.. The rest of the story, well that is for another time. But I thought people would like to see a few pictures of the folks you often hear me or someone talk about !

Howdy Folks - Well the good news is the new AoK dual carb intakes for the 23 1/2" USA small block flathead Mopars started going out the door last week. As well the AoK triples for the 25 1/2" Canadian Big block flathead Mopars that have been sold out for over a year are also available and shipping. More details and what the look like on this blog entry. The good and bad news.. Good: If your on the list for either a dual intake or a triple your covered. Your intake and if you want linkage, we will be able to supply them at the price point discussed. Bad: well Maybe Bad: If you haven't ordered an AoK dual intake there are 7 left not spoken for and there are 2 AoK triples for the big blocks not spoken for. After that, there will be no more at this price point that is for sure and whether we have any more made with depend on customer demand. As well we are now out of Carter Ball and Ball cores to build, so if you need George to build you up carbs, as of right now you will need to supply cores. Final piece of news is that if you order intakes, when paid for they can be shipped in less than a week. If you need linkage as well its up to 3 weeks lead time right now to ship and if you need carbs and haven't already ordered intakes and specified carbs, even with cores the lead time right now is at least 3 months and may be longer.. The super thing is George who just turned 85 is still doing them and is the best there is at doing them. The unfortunate part is George is slowing down and no one anticipated the new AoK intakes taking so long and the overwhelming demand for them and carbs when they were ready. Now that they are coming out of the machine shop all completed, the shear number is overwhelming so it will take some time .. George also has 4 Performance engine jobs promised and as of today will not be accepting any further engine rebuilds until further notice. On r6, r7 r10 Mopar overdrives, we will have to see what George has time for, and what his Sons and I can help out with on that front to be able to give anyone a leadtime. As I and many call him, the Flathead Mopar Living Legend is still going strong, but his ability to work on customer projects outside of the family, will now be very much slowed down. I am sure that is not a major surprise to anyone . Tim Kingsbury fargopickupking@yahoo,com

The 1936, 37, 38 overdrive out of a Desoto or Chrysler will work. A straight 3 speed the Chrysler and Desoto will work, I am not 100% sure about the Dodge. The early 1936 and 1935 you don't really want to use.

We use and recommend Amsoil 15w40 Heavy Duty Marine and Diesel Synthetic 12 TBN. And yes George is in Fertigs or Venus post office PA and in fact today is his 85 Birthday Tim

February 6 1932 my good friend and second Dad, the Grand Master of Flathead Mopars - George Asche was born. Yesterday was his surprise Birthday Party and today is George's 85th Birthday! The picture below is rumored to be when George Graduated High School, but I think really that should be a diploma of future Flathead Chrysler, Desoto, Plymouth, Dodge/Fargo's mastery ! In the background is his Dad's Dodge truck which George still owns today! Happy Birthday George! Oh and if your wondering what George was up to for Birthday. Well - Lunch with his Boys at the shop (George III, Rob and Tim), then building some carbs up, then over to the machine shop for some consulting as the AoK dual carb intakes were rolling through 7 different station. The picture of George with the prototype and the very first one to be completed which of course is his birthday present.. lol A few pictures of the Dual Carb (23 1/2" USA small block) and Triple Carb (25 1/2" Canadian Big Block) intakes going through the steps, and being test fitted on blocks setup with exhausts so that every intake has been checked for a perfect fit. Then it was off for Supper in Knox (Horse Thief Capital of the World) and back to George's shop and setting up tomorrows trip, which is believe it or not, were heading down to pick up George's Uncle Harry Hiens - #90 who is in the Nascar Hall of Fame. Harry lives in Mars PA. Were bringing him up to check out the AoK intakes and take George's newest 1929 Desoto for a ride!

Lol.. I can not confirm or deny that rumor, other than to say for George and I, a betting man would bet for us, it would be Ladies 1st! #BarbhasnewJewelryOnItsWay I can confirm that #42 which as the historical types will know was a 1949 Plymouth driven by Lee Petty has been spoken for in the AoK small block dual carb intakes, as are quite a few numbers, and looking at that list #43 does indeed appear to be spoken for. Ummm.... very interesting... lol

Your very welcome. I hope it helps clarify a few long standing fallacies and takes away some of the mysteries on flathead 6 carburation. The carter ball and ball really is quite a carb design, with great throttle response and terrific fuel atomization and delivery over wide ranges of torque and rpm ranges. There is no doubt with enough time and money a computerize fuel injection system could outperform our AoK triple carb intake equipped with carter ball and balls, but I don't see a line up of guys putting their money where there mouths are for that challenge. Whether rock stock smallest cubic inch flathead mopar or bored out 125 thou 265 big block, stroked with a wild cam, high compression and all kinds of tricks it doesn't matter. The engine with two equally split carbs and dual exhaust runs better, has more power and gets better fuel economy if driven the same as a single carb configuration and all factors are better with 3 carbs and dual exhaust, no matter which flathead 6 engine with 3 Siamese intake ports. Going to 3 carbs does have consequences in terms of air cleaners and air boxes under hoods so it isn't without some compromises. But the often heard comment that you need some performance engine to handle two carbs and need some full race motors for 3 carbs is just absolutely incorrect or flawed engineering logic... lol.. or a lack of engineering logic and a lack of understanding how a flathead mopar with 3 Siamese intake ports actually work.

Here is my carter ball and ball cheat sheet. Always keep in mind that it is very common to see people swapping tops, middle sections and bases so often looking at the marked part number on the carb bowl wing turns out to be foiled when someone has swapped around parts. Add in different jetting and carter ball and ball carbs give you an incredible range of carburation choices. This isn't a definitive list of every Carter Ball and Ball used, and some I didn't list throttle bores and venture sizes, nor did I get into jetting. You can literally wind up with paralysis by analysis with all the combinations an permutations there are available. Carter ball and ball Carburetor - Tim's cheat sheet Plymouth - 3 bolt – center section is 660 for Plymouth – starting 1950 2 bolt – center section is 635 - 1949 only 2 bolt – center section is 370 - 1939 – 1948 633s 1934-35 taxi base 395-4 (1 1/8 throttle bore 1 1/16 venturi) 1933 – 1938 – model 439s (1 7/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi) 1940 – 1942 - “P9” Carter Carb Ball and Ball model # b6p1, b6r1 and b6s1 (2 hole base) (1 5/32 throttle bore 1 3/32 venturi) 1942 (p14) and 1946-48 (p15) Model d6g1 – (2 hole base) (1 9/16 throttle bore 1 ¼ venturi) * 1949 (p17 – p18) 1950 (p19-p20), 1951-52 (p22 – p23), 1952 (p24) and 1954 (P25) model d6h1, d6h2 ( 1 9/16 throttle bore 1 ¼ venturi) there was a d6n1, d6n2 and d6r1 which are the same as the 1949-1954 carbs but have throttle restrictors * 1953 – 1954 – P24-p25 Plymouth with overdrives – D6U1 (1 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi) Dodge Bolt pattern on base is 2 15/16” and the center hole 1 11/16” 3 bolt – center section is 661 for Dodge truck 2 bolt - center section 404 – from early 1941 to 1947 1937 – 1940 truck - etr1r (2 hole base) 1940 – 1948 cabover is a 6c1, 6c2, 6d1, 6dir, 6e1, 6f1, 6g1, 6m1 (updraft carb) 1941, 42, 46, 47 truck etr1r, b6s1, dta2, dtb1-dtb1r, dtb2-dtb2r, dtb3-dtb3r, etp2, etr1-etr1r 1942 – 1949 trucks – model dtc1 (1 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi) or model ett1 (1 11/16 bore and 1 11/32 venturi) * 1946-1947 carbs with velocity governors – eyb1, eyb4, eyc1, eyc3, et1, et2, et4, e7b1, e7c1, e7f1, e7s1 * 1950-1954 ½ and ¾ ton and 1952 1 ton – dte1 and dte2 (1 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi) * 1950 – 1956 1 ½ - 3 ton – e7t1 and e7t2 (1 11/16 throttle bore 1 11/32 venturi) 1950-1954 cabover is 6n1 and 6n2 (updraft) ** 1952 2 ¾ - 4ton with dual carburetors – e7u1 and e7u2 1 11/16 throttle bore amd 1 11/32 venturi) E7t10-1533 center * Dodge d46 and d47 – 1953 - model d6h2 1 – 9/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi * Same thing but with overdrive – model d6u1 (same bore and venturi) ** 1953-1956 2 ½ ton truck with 2 carbs – model e9k1 and 39y1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi) (this is the 265 ci motor carbs) *1953-1955 2 ¾ ton – 3 ½ ton or 1953-56 4 ton – model e9g1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 ¼ venturi) (this was the 331-377-413 big block motor with dual carbs) * 1953-1955 1 and 1 ½ ton truck (route van) e9h1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi) (this is the 331-377-413 big block – single carb) * 1954 d51 and d52 – e9n1 or e9t1 (1 11/16 throttle bore and 1 11/32 venturi)

CFM or Cubic Feet Per Minute ranges widely in the Carter Ball and Ball family, with carbs at idle at less than 7 cfm and wide open at 38 cfm, up to modified truck carbs with over 650 cfm per carb. So it depends entirely what engine, what cubic inch, what compression, what cam spec etc that your running. A stock 201 runs quite well with 3 earlier Plymouth carbs with smaller throttle bores and ventures and my 1949 Plymouth which is a full race motor really is running 3 x 550 cfm carbs and our Rear Engine Dragster is running 3 carbs with a total CFM of very close to 2000 cfm and yes they are carter ball and ball carbs. I do not have every carb and jet configuration spec'd by CFM but will put up some details of the common Plymouth and Dodge truck carbs shortly. The Carter ball and ball has excellent throttle response and a great range of fuel delivery designed for manual transmission equipped engines. For the Chrysler and Dodges whether Carter or Stromberg you have circuitry built into the carb to deal with the semi automatic/automatic transmission

I sent Moak a note to get clarification - Maok said - "Hi Tim, SU (Skinner and Union) carbies are an old design from England, clever in design in that they dynamically adjust the throttle bore. Used in many English cars from 8 cylinder Jaguars to 4 cylinder Minis. Popular here in Oz with inline 6 cylinder tuners, ie. Slant 6, etc.The SU's come in a variety of bore sizes from 1-1/4" to 2", single side draught throat only. Some call them the poor mans Webers." Its not a carb I know anything about them. I see it was a early 1930s design listed as an updraft. I looked up the list of British cars they were used on and everyone notorious gas hogs. They are an updraft hybrid from what I can see, and by the time Canada entered the second world war there were over 2500 patents for carbs in Canada and the USA and I know my Grandfather said the lineup of companies trying to sell carb and fuel delivery systems was around the block in the late 30s. In any case this would take a complete change in intake design to deal with the side/updraft delivery. In any case sorry, I don't have any direct knowledge on them and this, like the webbers, fish or about 50 different carb manufacturers that I do know tried to pitch Mopar not anything Id invest time and money to develop an intake for. Sorry

Here are the factory air cleaners which as 7 1/4" wide at the top, and then we recently restored a set for a customer, took out the equalizer tube and governors but installed 1 phenolic washers, as unlike a carb intake the heat from these headers can not be shut off. If you like I can send you pictures of it disassembled

The head is a factory head from the early 30s, prior to the 25 1/2" engines being produced in Windsor Ontario Canada. Its a low compression head and not to be confused with the Edmunds aftermarket heads produced after the second world war. This is for a period restoration or a wall hanger, its not a performance head in any way shape or form. Your intake, was an option starting with the 1952 Dodge truck with a 265, and later a dealer add on. I will attached a restored one, the illustration from the 1952 Dodge engineering book, and the dealership ad for 1952. These were often seen on stock cars in 1952 as they were a factory part. You will notice, like all trucks the linkage is on the exhaust side and got along the head and arouind the back of the head, vs a car which sees the linkage come across the head. This is a rare performance part. With the air cleaners on them they are a bit of a challenge to get under a car hood. There are ways of dealing with that

Shirley Muldowney's Mom, Mae Scarborough Roque passed away today, in her 100th year. I had the chance to chat With Mrs Rogue. What a wonderful lady. How proud she was of her "little girl" putting those boys in their place on the track. In her 100th year She had quite a life. Our condolences to Shirley and the entire family Mae Scarborough Roque JANUARY 3, 1918 - JANUARY 9, 2017

On anything other than the 331/377/413 engine series everyone I have ever seen came from the factory red. On the super big blocks I have seen red ones and silver ones. I don't know if they dropped the red at some point.

No Edmunds never made a triple for the 23 1/2" small blocks. George Asche has made quite a few from stock intakes though. Here is a picture.

That is fine, as my Grandfather Kingsbury would say - if your not making mistakes your likely not doing much. It learning from those mistakes that matters. I have seen one of those Nicsons in my lifetime and didn't have a picture of it. I didn't remember it having water heating and of course the Eddy Edmunds triple didn't. Eddy did use water heating on a few different intakes but stopped using it on is last generation of intakes. Unlike the direct exhaust heat to help warm up the intake quickly at start up, by the time the water is actually warm enough to make a difference, the engine is already warmed up. In terms of color, all the dual intakes for Plymouth/dodge and Chrysler I have seen were red or had been blasted. Id love to see a profile picture to see if its much like the Edmunds profile or if it has more of a gradual curve from carb to block. I will attach a picture of the Edmunds and the foam core internal piece used for our AoK triple. Not all of the big block engine manifolds they made for the 331, 377 and 413 ci really big block engines were painted red but some certainly were. I am saying that having a 413 that I know where never touched and a 377 I know were never touched and 1 is red and 1 is not. They were both bought by a municipality and both came from the municipality to my family. Beyond that.. I will drop you a PM.

I will send you a PM. Something is not adding up here. If you can spray anything at the base of the carb and effect the idle, then whatever you are spraying is getting into the intake. If you have a poorly sealed carb to the intake, you can have exactly what you are describing and then if you start making carb adjustments you just add to the issue without solving the root cause.

Cool truck.. Looks a tad like my slightly newer 1951 Fargo. It runs an r10g1 overdrive out a 1952 Plymouth and we had a 1950 with an A833 Mopar 4speed with overdrive put in it as as the 50 was floor shift while the 1951 fargo with a factory 250 ci motor was a column shift.