Dry Carb Starting

[55 Fargo]

Hi all, this morning, I went out to start the 47, she would not go, removed the air filter, and no gas was going into the carb, no squirt of gas or anything, now I just bought gas and my gas gauge is working well, new sender unit all new wiring.

I had to prime my carb to get the engine started, I also noticed when I poured a few ounces of gas down the carb, it would leak out the bottom throttle plate shaft, so not sure if my carb is the problem, or if this is a fuel pump problem.

This happened about a week ago, but I did run out of gas, that time I had to prime the carb of course, it took a while to get gas pumped up to the carb.

Does this sound like carb, or fuel pump troubles?

The fuel pump has never been replaced and is at least 30 years old.................................Fred

[NatesSedan]

I installed a glass filter in my car so I could see if the gas was even flowing. It has a helped a ton with troubleshooting. I would start with the pump first. to see if your getting gas there. It may be something simple like a plugged pick up in the tank.

[Reg Evans]

All of my flatties have to be primed after sitting for several days. The float bowls go dry and it takes way too much cranking before the gas flows back into them. I just installed an electric pump in my 38 coupe last Friday and am going to let it sit for a couple of more days before I start it up. If the new pump eliminates me having to look for some gas to prime the carb:mad: after cranking until I'm worried about over working the starter and battery I'm going to install one in all my cars.

http://www.napaonline.com/NOLPPSE/(S(zanae055q1j5c445tdj1tq45))/Detail.aspx?R=NFPP4259_0006346221

For my other cars I'll be using one like this one on eBay. Much less expensive than the NAPA one and easier to install.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/6-volt-Electric-Fuel-Pump-for-Fords-with-unleaded-gas_W0QQitemZ190241278691QQihZ009QQcategoryZ34198QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[55 Fargo]

I installed a glass filter in my car so I could see if the gas was even flowing. It has a helped a ton with troubleshooting. I would start with the pump first. to see if your getting gas there. It may be something simple like a plugged pick up in the tank.

Hi, my engine did start after this, it either is back siphoning to the tank or something, the gas tank is brand new, so are all the lines and hoses, the carb was rebuilt in a shop, the only item inthe equation not replaced is the fuel pump.........Thanx for the reply

[55 Fargo]

All of my flatties have to be primed after sitting for several days. The float bowls go dry and it takes way too much cranking before the gas flows back into them. I just installed an electric pump in my 38 coupe last Friday and am going to let it sit for a couple of more days before I start it up. If the new pump eliminates me having to look for some gas to prime the carb:mad: after cranking until I'm worried about over working the starter and battery I'm going to install one in all my cars.

http://www.napaonline.com/NOLPPSE/(S(zanae055q1j5c445tdj1tq45))/Detail.aspx?R=NFPP4259_0006346221

Hey Reg, usually that is the case with the B&B carbs, I started my engine on Saturday night, and when I went to start it on Saturday night, it was just one hit with the starter button and away she went, that was after not being run for a few days,. Starting that easily after sitting fro a few days , is unusual, it usually take a few cranks.

This Morning I was getting absolutley no fuel in the carb throat, even after caranking a fair bit, so either the gas back siphoned to the gas tank, or the fuel pump is not the greatest, what else could it be?

It started once primed, and ran fine, and re-started just fine.

The more I hear of the electric fuel pump as a primer/auxiallary pump, the more I like the idea..............Thanx Fred ps how's my sister LOL

[jimwheeldon]

My old fuel pump (original) leaked so bad I replaced it with a reman. unit. I also rebuilt the carb . I can let my car sit for 3 months and she still fires right up...never had to prime it. It even started at -8 degrees in Feb. after sitting since December. I'm not trying to brag..it just seems that if things are in good condition they work very well as they were designed. I think the electric pump is a waste . My 50 flattie is one of the sweetest lttle motors I've ever had. maybe I just got lucky! Jim

[55 Fargo]

My old fuel pump (original) leaked so bad I replaced it with a reman. unit. I also rebuilt the carb . I can let my car sit for 3 months and she still fires right up...never had to prime it. It even started at -8 degrees in Feb. after sitting since December. I'm not trying to brag..it just seems that if things are in good condition they work very well as they were designed. I think the electric pump is a waste . My 50 flattie is one of the sweetest lttle motors I've ever had. maybe I just got lucky! Jim

No Jim, I don't think it's luck, others have the saame experience as you have said, they fire right up, the gas doe's back siphon or evaporate, or whatever, you have a fresh supply, immediately with your present system.

Now are you still a 6volt system, or are you a 12 volt system, the 12 volt conversion can ceratily crank up the gas much faster I would think.

Anyhew, you have a good system, I also have a spare fuel pump, maybe it's time to install it...........Fred

[Reg Evans]

I think Ed Juneau on the forum says the same thing. I have a 35 Dodge,a 38 Dodge,a 40 Power wagon,a 42 Dodge,a 49 Plymouth,and a 52 Dodge truck. All flatheads and every one of them WILL NOT start if they have sat for nearly a week unless I prime the carb. Sometimes I even have to get out and give it another prime before the carb delivers gas to the engine. All of these have had new fuel pumps and NOS or rebuilt carbs over the last few years and none of that ever help the dreaded "DRY CARB SYNDROME" in all these cars.

I'm leaning out of my garage window right now yelling......"I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more"

Some of you might remember that movie.

I wonder what the devil the difference is

I think a survery might be in order.

[RobertKB]

Fred, if your fuel pump is at least 30 years old I would replace it even if it is working OK. The rubber in the diaphram back then will not take the new gas very kindly. A new pump from NAPA or your local jobber will have the appropriate type of rubber for today's gas. It's worth changing before you try any other trouble shooting. I usually have to prime my cars after they have been sitting for a while as well. All my cars have the mechanical fuel pump and I am happy with how they work so I recommend going that route.

[Normspeed]

Fred, also make sure you have no possibility of a tiny air leak in the line between tank and pump. Especially if you have a small flex line near the frame on the intake side of the pump. A pinhole or smaller will not flow much fuel out but will allow a lot of air in on the suction side and the pump's ability to move fuel will be affected.

[woodie49]

I don't really get this. I can't beleive that everybody who owned a flathead in the 50's (which was probably everybody) had to get out and prime their cars every week or so if they didn't use it. Just doesn't seem possible.

My '49 is not the greatest starting in the world, but since putting in the Optima battery and rebuilding the carb, it does start after a few cranks. The secret is much more in the choke than in the fuel pressure. I get 5 or 6 oz. of gas to the card after about 15 cranks if I pull the line and run it into a container. So, I think my fuel pump is OK. But it really never "starts right up".

I also have a 41 Packard, which is, of course, also a flathead. It starts right up even when I don't touch it for a month. The only problem is it is so quiet that sometimes you can't tell!

It is a two barrel - anything inheretly different in the design that should account for this?

[De Soto Frank]

Guys,

The problem with carbs going dry is not our cars: it's the gasoline we get today, which has been reformulated to work with fuel-injection ( read: sealed fuel system) vehicles.

Modern fuel evaporates out of a carb MUCH quicker than the fuel we were getting in 1980 and before.

( Probably worse in warm, dry climates...)

This happens to every carbureted vehicle I own, if it sits for more than two or three days.

I occasionally use ether when starting a long-dormant vehicle, to shorten the amount of cranking needed to refill the carb, especially in the winter.

Fred, if your fuel pump is more than 20 years old, replace it. An Airtex 588 runs about $45 here in the US... I put one on my '41 De Soto back in '98 and haven't had to touch it since.

It's normal if you dump raw gas down the air-horn for it to hit that closed throttle-plate and wick-out through the throttle-shaft & bushings; they're not air/liquid-tight, even when new.

It is highly unlikely for to fuel to "siphon-back" into the tank from the carb in a Carter BB MoPar; the level of the float needle & seat is higher than the fuel level in the carb bowl, so there's no way for a siphon to start, plus, the fuel pump has two check-valves in it, that prevent fuel from being pushed back towards the tank during the return-stroke of the pump diaphragm.

I have yet to be "forced" into putting an electric fuel-pump on any of my old vehicles.

I can't hate anybody for installing one for "priming" purposes, but I have not been compelled to do that (yet?).

So far, my De Soto requires no more than 15-20 seconds cranking to fill a dry carb. Less than five seconds if it has been run the day or two before.

Six-volts, tired old engine (103,000 miles).

"Dry Carb Syndrome" is NOT unique to flathead MoPars: it happens to ALL carbureted vehicles; probably not as quickly on post-1970 stuff that has "contained" vent systems, vapor caniststers, and the like.

Probably the only carbureted vehicles that escape DCS would be gravity-feed stuff like Farmalls, Ford N-model tractors, and Model A Fords: turn-on the pet-cock, and gravity does the rest.

Keep a can of starting fluid handy; it's easier than pulling the air-cleaner and splashing raw gas down her throat...

Good luck !

De Soto Frank

[Niel Hoback]

I believe DeSoto Frank has it right, the new gas will dry up faster than you think. Pour some on your workbench and watch it go away.

But, if you really cheap, like me, remember what you did as a kid and didn't have money for fancy new parts.

This is foolproof and free. Take the gas cap off, seal you face to the filler pipe and blow as hard as you can 3 times, then hold the pressure for the count of 15. Get in and start it. The only problem is releasing the pressure without swallowing or inhaling it. Say,,,,, maybe thats my problem.

No kidding, it does work.

[De Soto Frank]

Niel,

I've used that trick too...

Blow too hard, and you'll see stars !

Gotta be careful who's watching too... a feller could get a "reputation" doing this sort of thing... worse yet, might even wind-up on "You-Tube" !

Frank

[jimwheeldon]

I'm running the original 6 volt system- nice big thick new cables mind you, and I have the original electric choke. I run E10 or the cheapest 87 octane...really whatever they have. The temperature extremes in South Dakota vary a lot- from -20 in the winter with 5% humidity to 105 above in the summer at 95% humidity. My flattie has about 87,000 miles on her- but it must have been rebuilt at some time (before 1967) because when I had the head off one of the pistons is stamped "STD" I've NEVER primed it . Norm-do you have any literature that explains the proper starting procedure? I may somewhere-I'll have to dig around. I know it can make a difference. after all this I have to think that something is not functioning properly in all these cars with the priming issue...it would be useful to diagnose and correct whats actually failing. Good luck all-sounds like a cure many could benefit from.

[Don Coatney]

Desoto Frank is right on. New gasolene formulations do evaporate faster. If my car has been sitting for a few days I must pump the pedal continually while cranking the starter (I use 5 second bursts) until it sputters. Then quit cranking and continue pumping for a few strokes. It then fires right up. I rarely use my choke even in the dead of winter.

[Young Ed]

Both my car and truck get parked for the entire winter. I dont have them here to start so they sit idle for about 5 months. Both have always started up without priming. My truck hasnt been started in about a month due to a broken garage door and then my trip. I'd bet it would start right now without issues too.

[55 Fargo]

Ed and anyone else might know,

I have a spare fuel pump from my 1955 Fargo Canadian long block engine, it is the glass bowl type, where the bowl is offset from the pump, it was used up until 3 years ago or so. I had it checked out by a mechanic I know, it works well, doesn't leak and is completely clean.

My current fuel pump on the car, the engine is another canadian long block, is the type without the glass bowl, can these fuel pumps interchange, do you happen to know?...............Thanx Fred

[Young Ed]

As far as I know they all fit on the engines. Sometimes there can be a space problem if you have those engine belly pan things.

[Reg Evans]

I've got to agree with De Soto Frank and Niel Hoback about the newer fuel formulation maybe being the cause of "DCS" .

I've had to keep several gas filled mustard squeeze containers in the garage along with some starting fluid for a long time now. I don't remove the air cleaner to prime the carb. I just loosen the wing nut in the center of the air cleaner and fill the indentation on top once or twice.

I'm not a stranger to these old Flatheads. My first car back in the mid 60's was a 33 Plymouth with a tired L6. I don't remember ever having to prime the carb to get it started unless I had run out of gas. There were times when I was away from it for 4 or 5 days and it would always start up.

Some of the first things I do to one of these old Mopars when I drag one home is to make up a set of heavy 6 volt cables, tune it up with new parts,and install a kit in the carb. All of this and my old cars still suffer from DCS. Very frustrating !

[55 Fargo]

I've got to agree with De Soto Frank and Niel Hoback about the newer fuel formulation maybe being the cause of "DCS" .

I've had to keep several gas filled mustard squeeze containers in the garage along with some starting fluid for a long time now. I don't remove the air cleaner to prime the carb. I just loosen the wing nut in the center of the air cleaner and fill the indentation on top once or twice.

I'm not a stranger to these old Flatheads. My first car back in the mid 60's was a 33 Plymouth with a tired L6. I don't remember ever having to prime the carb to get it started unless I had run out of gas. There were times when I was away from it for 4 or 5 days and it would always start up.

Some of the first things I do to one of these old Mopars when I drag one home is to make up a set of heavy 6 volt cables, tune it up with new parts,and install a kit in the carb. All of this and my old cars still suffer from DCS. Very frustrating !

Reg, hope these mustards, are not also used for the BBQ:D

[55 Fargo]

Both my car and truck get parked for the entire winter. I dont have them here to start so they sit idle for about 5 months. Both have always started up without priming. My truck hasnt been started in about a month due to a broken garage door and then my trip. I'd bet it would start right now without issues too.

Just went outside and started the 47, I drove it into the garage at supper time last night, it fried up first crank, so something is definately up.

I will replace the fuel pump and see what happens..........Fred ps I drove the car about 20 miles yesterday with no issues, once I primed it and got the engine started......Fred

[Reg Evans]

Desoto Frank is right on. New gasolene formulations do evaporate faster. If my car has been sitting for a few days I must pump the pedal continually while cranking the starter (I use 5 second bursts) until it sputters. Then quit cranking and continue pumping for a few strokes. It then fires right up. I rarely use my choke even in the dead of winter.

Hey Don, How did your car do with DCS before you converted to 12 volts?

[Don Coatney]

Hey Don, How did your car do with DCS before you converted to 12 volts?

Reg;

My car had a half fast 12 volt conversion when I bought it.

[Reg Evans]

Don,

Oh...well....even my 52 pickup,which I converted to 12 volts,will drain the battery sometimes after a month long sleep trying to pump the carb full of gas.

Rockwood,

No....I seem to regularly get gas right after a BBQ.