Strange problem with starter in D19

[GTfastbacker]

Gentlemen,

can someone please send me photos of an original D19/P18 starter?

 

I have the following problem with our new D19 (with a P18 engine in it):

 

The starter is not working properly and is not engaging. So I took it out today and found that the pedal lever travel is limited by the switch on the starter. In the fully depressed end position, however, the pinion is still about 3/4" away from the fully extended end point. This means that it does not run properly in the ring.

 

Either I have the wrong starter in the car or the starter was put together from a collection of the wrong parts, what I rather suspect.

I have to find out.

 

Thank you so much

Joe

 

.

 

Edited June 22 by GTfastbacker

[soth122003]

3 hours ago, GTfastbacker said:

Either I have the wrong starter in the car or the starter was put together from a collection of the wrong parts, what I rather suspect.

Doubtful. You stated in different post the starter worked fine and then quit working. Inside the drive housing (pinion housing) you should have an over running clutch assy. This consists of yoke clevis attachment part, a spring, a bearing and the gear. If the spring is broken or missing it will limit the travel of the assy. 

 

The only other thing I can think of is the switch assy. If the contact button is adjustable, screw it in a little to let the arm engage it later adding more travel to the over running clutch assy.

 

By the way, you don't have to start a new thread for the same problem. It makes it harder for people reading to have a clear idea of what's going on by have to switch back and forth between threads.

 

Joe Lee

[GTfastbacker]

I think there is a difference between the starter working well and it not engaging the gear.

 

Before the post I wrote yesterday

(thanks for the tip, I will keep the topic together in the future)

I of course dismantled the starter and checked the components. There is only very little wear, the parts are clean, move freely and nothing is broken. The freewheel works.

 

What is not right is the path of the pinion on the shaft. It moves too short. Geometrically it is not possible to do otherwise, I have made a few attempts. The switch is fixed in the position.

 

The starter was probably only minimally engaged and now it was not engaging.

 

We have not driven the car since it came from Kansas, we have only started it a few times in the garage to make adjustments.

 

I am convinced that parts here don't belong together.

 

Please excuse me for first asking the crowd of experts whether there are any special features on this car. This Dodge is new territory for me. I have been working on other models for over 40 years, especially the Ford FE.

 

Over the years I've probably had 30 starters on the operating table for an overhaul. However, there was never a foot starter.

 

Thank you

Joe

Edited June 23 by GTfastbacker

[Dave72dt]

Engines tend to stop in one of two places each time, 180 degrees apart.  The results of that can develop into a worn ring gear from repeated starter engagements in the same place.  Take a look at the ring gear.  Some combinations of flywheels and starters have required some machine work to get proper starter drive engagement.  A bent fork, worn ears on the drive, worn pins or pin holes on the pivot points.  Has the ring gear moved back on the flywheel ( may not be possible ) or come loose? Does the drive freewheel in both directions or just the one? You should be able to get some measurements of actual drive movement and compare to where the ring gear teeth are.  Pictures of the fork and drive out of the housing may help as well as one of the drive extended.

[soth122003]

Sorry GT, from your other post I made an assumption. You posted the following:

 

"Starter quit working today, the carshows are everywhere but the ole Gal will not work anymore ...

It's a 6V pos. ground Car, 6V works fine but the starter.

Everything worked perfectly until yesterday."

 

From that I assumed you had been driving or starting the car on a regular basis. That's what threw me. Something just does not stop working due to a wrong part or "starter" in this case, after working for a good while. The other thing that was throwing me off was the comment of a starter for a D-19 with a P-18 engine. The P-18 doesn't use a foot starter. Then I had to remember that the starter doesn't bolt to the engine it bolts to the bell housing. My brain misfires like that from time to time, so that's on me. LoL. 

 

Now back to your problem. The D-19 (forget about the P-18 unless it is engine related) has 2 starters listed for it. The starter models are MZ-4089 and the MZ-4089A.(From the 1935-1953 Motors Manual). What the difference is I don't know, Some one with a parts manual may be able to say.  If you heard a clunk and the starter stopped engaging, then I would guess that either something broke in the pinion, or a couple of teeth may have broken on the ring. (Had that happen to me before on a 69 Tornado, I had to roll the engine by the crankshaft nut to get it engage on good teeth.) You might want to give the ring gear a good look see to make sure all the teeth are good. You said you heard a clunk and that might have been a tooth or a couple of teeth breaking off. If your starter looks good and no visiable signs of damage I would check the ring gear.

 

Joe Lee

[GTfastbacker]

9 hours ago, soth122003 said:

Sorry GT, from your other post I made an assumption. You posted the following:

 

"Starter quit working today, the carshows are everywhere but the ole Gal will not work anymore ...

It's a 6V pos. ground Car, 6V works fine but the starter.

Everything worked perfectly until yesterday."

 

From that I assumed you had been driving or starting the car on a regular basis. That's what threw me. Something just does not stop working due to a wrong part or "starter" in this case, after working for a good while. The other thing that was throwing me off was the comment of a starter for a D-19 with a P-18 engine. The P-18 doesn't use a foot starter. Then I had to remember that the starter doesn't bolt to the engine it bolts to the bell housing. My brain misfires like that from time to time, so that's on me. LoL. 

 

Now back to your problem. The D-19 (forget about the P-18 unless it is engine related) has 2 starters listed for it. The starter models are MZ-4089 and the MZ-4089A.(From the 1935-1953 Motors Manual). What the difference is I don't know, Some one with a parts manual may be able to say.  If you heard a clunk and the starter stopped engaging, then I would guess that either something broke in the pinion, or a couple of teeth may have broken on the ring. (Had that happen to me before on a 69 Tornado, I had to roll the engine by the crankshaft nut to get it engage on good teeth.) You might want to give the ring gear a good look see to make sure all the teeth are good. You said you heard a clunk and that might have been a tooth or a couple of teeth breaking off. If your starter looks good and no visiable signs of damage I would check the ring gear.

 

Joe Lee

 

Hello Joe,

as I wrote above, the starter works, but the pinion doesn't move far enough.

Today I looked at 2 other Dodge starters at a friend's house, and it's different there. The pinion moves out fully.

This evening I'll measure the distances between the flange and the ring and check how far the pinion moves into the ring.

Surprisingly, my starter has a longer housing at the front than the other starters I have to check here.

My suspicion is probably correct, the wrong parts were put together for my starter.

 

I can post some pictures to show later.

 

Thank you

Joe

 

Edited June 24 by GTfastbacker

[GTfastbacker]

Luckily, I met two gentlemen a while ago who each have an old Dodge. And as luck would have it, they both have a spare starter, which they lent me to try out.

 

After I had all three starters lying next to each other on the operating table, it was clear that the ring gear (R) on my starter was only just engaging.

 

I compared all the components and found that someone had set the adjustable switch (thread) completely wrong and had fixed it with some kind of glue. The other starters could be adjusted, but mine couldn't.

 

So I repaired it and my starter now works just as the Dodge Bros. intended it to.

 

Joe

Edited Thursday at 05:21 PM by GTfastbacker

[Plymouthy Adams]

 likely that the P series crank and D series flywheel conundrum.......many folks do not readily pick up on the difference especially if they going to move the car forward as it is.  

[GTfastbacker]

18 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

 likely that the P series crank and D series flywheel conundrum.......many folks do not readily pick up on the difference especially if they going to move the car forward as it is.  

 

Who knows. That will probably always remain a miracle. On the other hand, my starter was put together by an apprentice.

 

PS.

i had to search for a imperial ruler… lol

Edited Thursday at 08:32 PM by GTfastbacker

[Sniper]

4 hours ago, GTfastbacker said:

i had to search for a imperial ruler… lol

 

I was going to comment on an inch rule made in Germany, never saw such a thing, lol.