Need to Modify De Soto Starter

[Bingster]

I've gone round and round with this starter off my '47 De Soto and have come to the conclusion that the original design was a bit overkill with the relay pushing a cylinder which pushes a disc bridging the positive and negative terminals of the solenoid which kicks off the starter.  

 

The NOS relay which seemed to work somehow doesn't energize the first coil which, which is probably bad, but the starter itself works well by crossing the positive and negative terminals.

 

Seems to me that if a person used a push button on/off switch on the dash to combine the positive and negative terminals it would act just like the original set-up without converting to a floor push starter which l've seen some people do. 

Anybody see any problem?

[Sniper]

Other than the fact that the starter pulls hundreds of amps starting the engine on occasion and that would fry any push button you tried to use there shouldn't be a problem. You would be better off getting a 6 both starter relay like my 51 Plymouth uses. It's very similar to the Ford relays you might see in the muscle car era. And using your push button to control that

[Bingster]

That's what I wanted to know.  Can you give me a little more info to go on?

[Митя]

This is the relay you need to install

 

Description

#B5007-007, Starter Solenoid for 6-Volt Starting Systems

 

Fits the Following Vehicles

Dodge Car – 1949-1954

Dodge Truck – 8 Cylinder 1953-1955

Plymouth – 1946-1954 (All), 1955 (All with Standard Transmission)

[Bingster]

I have a De Soto.

[Bingster]

I understand what the relay's job was in the 1947 DeSoto starter set-up.  But I don't understand how a relay like the one shown above works with my starter and where it figures in the wiring.  As Sniper pointed out, the voltage in a starter button on the dash would make you look like Art Garfunkle. Not that he looks bad, mind you, but it's a unique "do".

I'm assuming again, as I always seem to be assuming in this old classic niche, that the relay is a protection of some sort so you don't get an Afro at the dash.  So if somebody has a wiring diagram that could add a relay to my four-terminal set-up that'd be most welcome.  Oh, and Merry Christmas.

[Bingster]

This is what I have been told to use on the floor of the car in place of the dash button.

[Los_Control]

Interesting .... that is a starter relay for a stomp starter. My truck has one and I suppose some cars but I dunno.

 

The only wiring for it is the power cable from the battery ...... Negative cable from battery on a + ground system bolts to it.

 

The relay is bolted onto the starter, then the stomp pedal inside the cab pushes on the button.

Then mechanically the connection to the starter is made ..... there is no wiring.

 

I just do not see how you can adapt that to work with your Desoto starter. ..... I suppose it is heavy enough to do the job .... would take some fabrication to switch the mechanical connection inside to a wire connection ...... I suppose anything is possible, pretty sure that is not the choice I would make though.

[Los_Control]

A photo for illustration.

 

 

It is bolted to the starter with the battery cable going to it and then the main power wire to the rest of the truck is connected there.

The lever is activated from the pedal inside the cab.

 

While the power going in is supplied from the battery, the connection to the starter is made mechanically when you step on the pedal and it makes contact to the starter.

 

The 6 volt relay in the photo posted above by the name I can not spell   is what I think you want and what sniper is pointing you towards ...

[Sniper]

3 hours ago, Bingster said:

This is what I have been told to use on the floor of the car in place of the dash button.

 

Stop taking advice from that advisor.  Los shows a picture of the native application.  In that application the foot starter llever does two things.  It kicks the starter gear into mesh with the flywheel AND it powers the starter motor.

 

In your application both of those functions are done by the solenoid.  If your solenoid doesn't kick the gear out, your engine will never start even if you get the motor to turn over.  Does it kick the gear out? 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Sniper

[Bingster]

Yes.  But you have to bridge the ground post that is attached to the starter case with the hot wire opposite it. Then the starter will kick out. I haven't determined if it spins at the same time cause of the sparks.

[Sniper]

Ok, Disconnect battery negative cable from the battery then disconnect the fat cable from the starter, tape it off so it cannot short out, maybe even zip tie it somewhere is cannot short out.  Reconnect the battery cable, then test your solenoid.  If it still sparks the solenoid has an issue, if it does not then it's the starter motor with the issue.

 

We can go from there.

[Bingster]

Gotch ya. I was curious why a guy has the handle "Sniper" so I looked at your web site and was very impressed.  I attempted to try your email after being "sniped" but it took me to a strange place. Not in my mind, but to a blank email  form.  And did you paint or draw the picture? Very nice.

[Sniper]

Interesting, the email link works for me and I am not sure what picture you are referring to.

[Bingster]

 

I saw "Renaissance Man" and so I thought you might have been an artist and painted the man and the boy at the dock. it. I clicked on Atothendy@gmail and got an email form with no To: or Subject:  Nothing major.

 

 

[Bingster]

This is not my photo. But this is what we've been talking about for my 1947 De Soto S-11 starter.

The top two thinner posts are for that relay winding, and that is what I have just installed as NOS. You can see the points that are very similar to distributor points.  The design is that when the upper right thin post receives hot power from the dash button, it closes the points and the negative hot wire travels across to the left hand positive post, which has been grounded to the generator.

 

When this happens, there is a smaller coil inside the starter housing that pulls a plunger into the case. When this happens, the plunger pushes a round metal disc which bridges the lower two thick posts (hot and ground) to kick off the starter.  Just like the old hot wire screwdriver trick.

 

But for some reason, my NOS upper relay points do close when hot power is manually applied to the right post and ground to the left.  But that's it. No power reaches the coil inside the case and thus the plunger doesn't plunge and thus the metal disc does not bridge the lower thick posts and thus the starter does not kick off.

 

I'm at a loss. It's rather depressing, really. I was anticipating my flat head coughing itself to life.  Another setback. I'm looking into an auto electrical shop that is just an auto electrical shop. That last guy who said he fixed my starter was a parts outlet owner and I think he just wanted to sell me a starter solenoid at double it's price online.

At this stage, after months of having to go through a lot of repairs on other parts just to get to the starter, I don't mind investing a bit more than I usually would to get the starter repaired properly and have a working starter.

 

But I'm trying a last ditch effort on the chance that somebody out there can enlighten me to something I might have overlooked or done wrong before I call a shop. I've searched in past posts a few years back where they were having the same problem and I've contacted some of them to see how they resolved their issue.

 

Iowa doesn't appear too well equipped with auto electrical shops that specialize, but I found a great looking one in Philadelphia. But can you imagine the shipping on a starter that almost gave me a hernia leaning over the front fender to put it in?  Holding it while it took me fifteen minutes just to get the top bolt to catch the thread?

 

[Dave72dt]

there used to be a good one in Elkader, Ia located in the Napa store but a separate business.  May or may not still be in business but I haven't been there in a couple of years now.  All our oddball starters that didn't have rebuilds available or were needed quickly went there.  5 hr drive one way and doesn't mean walk in, walk out service, but it's an option.

[Bingster]

You'd think that with the scarcity of this starter solenoid that somebody could devise one that worked the same way or achieved the same results as the original. Maybe there wouldn't be enough call for them.

 

Andy B???

[Митя]

The relay I showed works like a solenoid on the starter. Apply to the small contact from the ignition switch. one thick one from the battery, and the second thick one needs to be fed to the starter.
Often two contacts on the starter relay are used to bypass the ignition coil resistance. This is not a fundamental point, the car will start without it. But such relays are also sold with two contacts.

[Sam Buchanan]

9 hours ago, Bingster said:

At this stage, after months of having to go through a lot of repairs on other parts just to get to the starter, I don't mind investing a bit more than I usually would to get the starter repaired properly and have a working starter.

 

I had to smile at this comment. After months of working on your car with the intentions of being very frugal with expenses you have finally arrived at the fork in the road that all of us eventually reach if we decide we want an old car that functions well. Old cars are more expensive to renovate and maintain than we imagined when we began the journey. At some point we decide to spend whatever is necessary to make the car functional and our earlier intentions of frugality fade into futility. 

 

Welcome to the club!  ?

[Bingster]

Thanks! But the dealer where I bought my used Subaru wanted $300 to fix the window washer pump.  It took a gasket but most of it was labor.  I've been cleaning it myself when I get gas.

[Sniper]

10 hours ago, Bingster said:

 

I saw "Renaissance Man" and so I thought you might have been an artist and painted the man and the boy at the dock. it. I clicked on Atothendy@gmail and got an email form with no To: or Subject:  Nothing major.

 

 

Ah, ok.  That painting was a recruiting poster back when I went into the Navy.  the only painting I can do is on a ship, lol.

[Bingster]

Well, I'm sure you did an artful job!

[Sniper]

8 hours ago, Митя said:

The relay I showed works like a solenoid on the starter. Apply to the small contact from the ignition switch. one thick one from the battery, and the second thick one needs to be fed to the starter.

 

 

Not exactly, his setup also kicks the starter gear into mesh with the flywheel teeth, something that relay you posted cannot do.  What is does do is replace the disc portion of the starter.

 

9 hours ago, Bingster said:

No power reaches the coil inside the case and thus the plunger doesn't plunge and thus the metal disc does not bridge the lower thick posts and thus the starter does not kick off.

 

There has to be a wire from that relay to the coil inside the case to energize it and that coil also needs to be grounded on the other end.  Based on it not working and the sparking you mentioned I wonder if that wire has shorted to ground?  This will be a close eyeball exam because a regular ohmmeter will not tell you anything useful, now if you had an octopus that would.

 

https://manualwiringschaefer.z19.web.core.windows.net/octopus-component-tester-schematic.html

 

[Bingster]

Thought I should say that my Norton pop up said threats were blocked on that link.  Not certain that it was your link.