Inspecting a '47 Deluxe sedan - Tow dolly transporting question

[46Chris]

Traveling 2 1/2 hours tomorrow to see a '47 sedan with fluid drive that's been sitting for some time, though reportedly started a few times a year.  If we do buy the car, I'd like to haul it back using a U-Haul dolly.  I presume I need to remove the driveshaft before transporting, is that correct?   If so, anything in particular I should know about removing the driveshaft?  

Thanks, Chris

[DonaldSmith]

For a 2-1/2 hour trip, remove the driveshaft.   Before disassembling the two ends, mark them so they will assemble the same and won't get 180 degrees off, which could cause vibrations.

 

If this is not the long wheelbase like my Suburban ,the car will fit on a U-Haul Car Transport trailer.  Drive it on, strap it down.  U-Haul will want to know what you are pulling it with.  That may be th case with the dolly, too, since the trailer has surge brakes and the dolly has none. 

 

20 years ago, I dollied my Suburban home, with my son's Jeep.  I pulled the driveshaft and drove really slowly.  For this year's DeSoto convention, we rented a 3/4 ton truck and a large flatbed trailer, afet finding out the the Suburban wear wheels didn't quite get onto the U-Haul trailer. 

 

I just want to say, good luck; we're all counting on you 

 

[46Chris]

Many thanks, Donald!  I wouldn't have thought to mark the driveshaft.  When you say "the two ends" I'm not quite clear on that.  I was imagining that there would be 4 bolts securing the rear of the driveshaft to the differential.  What am I missing?

 

Our Toyota Sienna does not qualify as a tow vehicle for a transport trailer, already checked.  I've used dollies to transport old cars before, with success.  Curious as to why you drove slowly when you dollied your Suburban home.  What was your caution?

 

We had a '49 Suburban for a couple years, a wonderful car.  At the time, I was too easily smitten by "the next one" and of course, regret having sold it.  Here are all the cars we've had over the past 30 years or so: https://chrisrewey.widencollective.com/c/xm9n8vx9

 

When we relocated from our long-time home in the Madison area to the north woods of WI, I no longer had the luxury of a 40x60 storage building.  We found good homes for the remaining 6 cars in the collection, knowing that at some point we'd be able to make room for just one old car.  That one car may be this '47 Deluxe sedan, if it is "as advertised."  If it is the one, I expect to be a frequent visitor to this forum.  

[DonaldSmith]

You are correct.  To remove the driveshaft, you only have to take apart the U-joint at the differential.  The front end of the driveshaft has a splined shaft that will sllide out of the transmissin, so the U-joint there can remain together. 

 

 Suddenly, it's all coming back to me.  My son was afraid to drive his Jeep with the Suburban towed behind it, so he let me bear the responsibility.   I drove slowly to avoid handling problems (braking) and problems overheating sometning.  

 

I considered a tow dolly for the 75 miles to the Desoto Convention this year, but someone on the forum recommended against leaving the driveshaft on.  The fear is that at that diatance and at highway speeds it may overheat the Mopar semi-automatic transmmission's hydraulic system.  How great a distance and at what speed? 

 

Your portfolio is qute impressive.   You've probably towed a few cars.  And they are all different.   As a kid,we had a 52 Caddie with a Hydromatic Transmission.  It was a no-no even to push the car to get it started.  My brother wouldn't listen to me, and he trashed a recent transmission rebuild.   

 

[vintage6t]

Not sure of the laws there but here in CT you can only legally dolly a registered and insured vehicle. Otherwise all four wheels have to be off the ground, as in on a trailer or flatbed.

 

If you pull the yoke of the driveshaft out of a transmission, as suggested above, isn't going to leak fluid out the back? In this case a moot point,  won't the 47 just have a flange that the driveshaft bolts to and not a slide yoke?

[desoto1939]

If the prior owner had changed the driveshaft to a more modern spicer u joint then your are correct onthe slip joint.  The front u joint might be the old style pin and trunion style that is attached with four bolts.  The rear might also be the same setup.

 

You might want to ask the seller to take a few pictures of the drive shaft area to make sure of what is installed.  Also take along a 3 ton floor jack to get the car up inthe air so you can crawl under the car to remove the drive shaft and also some plastic if the car is sitting on a dirt floor.  Also WD 40 or PBBlaster to spray on the bolts and a yellow tire marking pencil to indicate where the current bolts are attached to each ujoint assembly.  Also some plastic to wrap the drive shaft when transporting it back home. Also you socket set and open and closed wrenches.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[DonaldSmith]

White-out also works.

[Los_Control]

I will just toss out my 2 cents.

My first thought is it may be ball & trunion with a leather boot surrounding it ..... It may not have been serviced for years .... it might turn into a job you would rather do at home.

 

If you do need to rent a U-haul tow dolly ..... I just wonder how much more it would cost to rent a car trailer?

It may be $75-$100 more? .... In the grand scheme of things, I'm guessing you are paying more then $1K for the vehicle .... You will probably be putting more then $1K into it over the next few years .... Whats another $100 to have a safe, trouble free trip getting it home without having to do any wrenching on it at some unknown place?

 

I love tow dollies and have used them many times to get home with .... My Uncle had one. There are times where it really was more work then life should be.

[46Chris]

1 hour ago, DonaldSmith said:

You are correct.  To remove the driveshaft, you only have to take apart the U-joint at the differential.  The front end of the driveshaft has a splined shaft that will sllide out of the transmissin, so the U-joint there can remain together. 

 

 Suddenly, it's all coming back to me.  My son was afraid to drive his Jeep with the Suburban towed behind it, so he let me bear the responsibility.   I drove slowly to avoid handling problems (braking) and problems overheating sometning.  

 

I considered a tow dolly for the 75 miles to the Desoto Convention this year, but someone on the forum recommended against leaving the driveshaft on.  The fear is that at that diatance and at highway speeds it may overheat the Mopar semi-automatic transmmission's hydraulic system.  How great a distance and at what speed? 

 

Your portfolio is qute impressive.   You've probably towed a few cars.  And they are all different.   As a kid,we had a 52 Caddie with a Hydromatic Transmission.  It was a no-no even to push the car to get it started.  My brother wouldn't listen to me, and he trashed a recent transmission rebuild.   

 

Thanks for the story behind your slow driving.  I'll keep it at or below the speed limit, and stop to check strap tightness periodically.  The whole trip is on blue highways so all 55 and below.  One should not ever tow a non-running RWD car with a conventional automatic trans with the driveshaft installed.  The modern trans requires hydraulic pressure to adequately lube and cool, so the only way to tow with the driveshaft on would be to leave the car running.  I used to run a couple trans shops in the early '70's, and in those 8 years we never had to work on a fluid drive.  Plenty of Hydra-Matics, Slim Jims, Dynaflows and Powerglides were still on the road, and we'd work on our share.  Because fluid drive is a hydraulic coupling where a clutch assembly would normally be, it's possible that running with the driveshaft installed would not be harmful since rearward of that coupler is a regular standard trans that does not require hydraulic pressure for lube or cooling.  But, I'm no stranger to acting ignorantly, and prefer being cautious in my elder years.  Yep, many years of fun with many old cars.  It was good to say goodbye to the 6 remaining favorites, though, because I couldn't admit that having so many cars was just too much for me, and I wouldn't willingly sell them.  As a result, I drove them less frequently and felt more guilt than enjoyment.  Having had so many cars at a time and knowing it was too much for me, having just one car feels like the way to go.  Why a '47 Plymouth?  Because I love pre-war cars, and '46 - '48 cars can still be considered pre-war in my mind.  And, because my wife sent me the ad while we've been actively looking over the past month. If she likes it, all the better.

[46Chris]

26 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I will just toss out my 2 cents.

My first thought is it may be ball & trunion with a leather boot surrounding it ..... It may not have been serviced for years .... it might turn into a job you would rather do at home.

 

If you do need to rent a U-haul tow dolly ..... I just wonder how much more it would cost to rent a car trailer?

It may be $75-$100 more? .... In the grand scheme of things, I'm guessing you are paying more then $1K for the vehicle .... You will probably be putting more then $1K into it over the next few years .... Whats another $100 to have a safe, trouble free trip getting it home without having to do any wrenching on it at some unknown place?

 

I love tow dollies and have used them many times to get home with .... My Uncle had one. There are times where it really was more work then life should be.

I agree with your perspective, Los.  Our Toyota Sienna doesn't qualify as adequate to tow both the U-Haul trailer and the car, but it does qualify for the dolly.  That said, when I get there and look underneath if it looks too complex I will consider waiting until I can borrow a bigger vehicle that will qualify for the full trailer.  Just going to look at it tomorrow.  I was already thinking about borrowing a bigger vehicle, because I don't believe the tires have been changed in many years.  I have had just one bias-ply explosion of an old tire (before I paid attention to tire age), and it was no fun.  That's another reason to trailer instead of dolly.  As it is, just to remove the driveshaft I'd have to drive the car onto the dolly, then jack up the back with a 6 ton, put jack stands under it and then remove the driveshaft.  Won't have enough people on hand to remove the driveshaft, then push the dead weight car up the ramps onto the dolly.  

[46Chris]

50 minutes ago, desoto1939 said:

If the prior owner had changed the driveshaft to a more modern spicer u joint then your are correct onthe slip joint.  The front u joint might be the old style pin and trunion style that is attached with four bolts.  The rear might also be the same setup.

You might want to ask the seller to take a few pictures of the drive shaft area to make sure of what is installed.  Also take along a 3 ton floor jack to get the car up inthe air so you can crawl under the car to remove the drive shaft and also some plastic if the car is sitting on a dirt floor.  Also WD 40 or PBBlaster to spray on the bolts and a yellow tire marking pencil to indicate where the current bolts are attached to each ujoint assembly.  Also some plastic to wrap the drive shaft when transporting it back home. Also you socket set and open and closed wrenches.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

Good advice, Rich.  I am bringing a 3 ton floor jack, a couple jack stands and a creeper.  I will bring some PB along with tools, if I do decide the driveshaft removal is a go, when I do return to pick it up.  Tomorrow is just a visit and a drive.  If the driveshaft looks to be beyond my skill (doesn't take much) I will wait to borrow a bigger vehicle and take a trailer.

[46Chris]

1 hour ago, vintage6t said:

Not sure of the laws there but here in CT you can only legally dolly a registered and insured vehicle. Otherwise all four wheels have to be off the ground, as in on a trailer or flatbed.

 

If you pull the yoke of the driveshaft out of a transmission, as suggested above, isn't going to leak fluid out the back? In this case a moot point,  won't the 47 just have a flange that the driveshaft bolts to and not a slide yoke?

Vintage, pretty tough laws there in CT.  Good call, I am going to check MI law.  I do plan to get it on my Hagerty policy before picking it up, however.   Yes, it will leak fluid out the back if the driveshaft is out and there's nothing pressing against the wiper seal on the back of the trans.  Will have to check trans fluid level upon arrival before driving.  And as to the flange, I'll confess ignorance about the setup since I don't have a manual yet, and haven't found photos of the likely arrangement.  I guess I'll find out when I get there tomorrow.

[Los_Control]

I agree Chris, U-haul is very strict on what they rent depending on the tow rig .... I have even seen where my employer rented a bobcat and had the correct Truck/trailer to tow it. But his tie down straps were only 2.5" wide and they required 3" wide straps .... so they would not load it unless he rented straps to go with it.

 

I have seen situations where it was easier to just rent the truck & trailer from u-haul. Have a tire blow out and they pay for it.

 

People really do stupid things, u-haul tries to protect themselves the best they can.   Then people come along and do things like this.

As bad as it looks, when the guy left the property we had some heavy wood beams across the trailer and the frame was sitting on them .... It was strapped down good and the rear axle was just swinging in the breeze. He drove 250 miles from Eastern WA to Western WA over the snow filled mountain pass in the winter.

Said he drove 35 mph all the way. ..... This is the reason why u-haul is so particular on what they rent.

 

 

 

[vintage6t]

1 hour ago, desoto1939 said:

Also take along a 3 ton floor jack to get the car up inthe air so you can crawl under the car to remove the drive shaft

And jack stands. Don't get under without them.

[46Chris]

8 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I agree Chris, U-haul is very strict on what they rent depending on the tow rig .... I have even seen where my employer rented a bobcat and had the correct Truck/trailer to tow it. But his tie down straps were only 2.5" wide and they required 3" wide straps .... so they would not load it unless he rented straps to go with it.

 

I have seen situations where it was easier to just rent the truck & trailer from u-haul. Have a tire blow out and they pay for it.

 

People really do stupid things, u-haul tries to protect themselves the best they can.   Then people come along and do things like this.

As bad as it looks, when the guy left the property we had some heavy wood beams across the trailer and the frame was sitting on them .... It was strapped down good and the rear axle was just swinging in the breeze. He drove 250 miles from Eastern WA to Western WA over the snow filled mountain pass in the winter.

Said he drove 35 mph all the way. ..... This is the reason why u-haul is so particular on what they rent.

 

 

 

Love this photo, Los!  Yep, scary stupid.  

[46Chris]

2 minutes ago, vintage6t said:

And jack stands. Don't get under without them.

You got that right.   Seems the older I get (70 now) the more vivid my imagination about what could happen.  Thank you.

[DonaldSmith]

Here's a photo taken during a transmission removal a few years go.  

For the long wheelbase cars, there is a short fixed-length driveshaft, as shown, then a trunnion, universal joint, and the usual splined driveshaft.   I had to unbolt the trunnion and move the short driveshaft back, in order to remove the tansmission.  

For a standard car, you could unbolt the universal joint at the transmission, but it's simpler to pull the splined end of the drive shaft out.  With either way, there should be no lekage out of the back of the trnsmission.  

 

[Ivan_B]

1 hour ago, Los_Control said:

People really do stupid things, u-haul tries to protect themselves the best they can. 

The ramps are still on the ground, with the truck's wheels sitting on them. Are you sure this is not photoshop or just a staged prank? ?

 

I would recommend renting a truck with a trailer. Their vehicles are inappropriate inside, so take some wet disinfectant napkins with you. Keep in mind that you do not even need the big moving truck, you can just take a small pick-up. It is qualified to tow mostly anything on their trailer. This is how I got my car home. Rented the pick-up and trailer, drove to the car, stayed in the hotel overnight, than towed the car back home for like ~10 hours. Nice and easy, cost about $450 based upon mileage.

 

One important tip: when you go back to the haul to pick-up your own car, which you've left there on the customer's parking lot, about 20 minutes before the closing time, do not forget the keys ?

Edited October 18, 2023 by Ivan_B

[Los_Control]

13 minutes ago, Ivan_B said:

The ramps are still on the ground, with the truck's wheels sitting on them. Are you sure this is not photoshop or just a staged prank? ?

I wish it was .... It was quite a feat getting it loaded ..... I was still physically sick at the time, I helped where I could .... just took a few pictures along the way.

My Uncle sold the truck to the kid for $600 and I started it up he drove it on the trailer.

 

Here you can see how he was jacking it up ..... I never got a photo of it fully loaded and tied down .... It was late and pitch dark outside.

The kid was smart enough to not drive this thing in the daylight ..... Uncle was getting old and simply trying to sell off some vehicles so his kids did not have to.

I was simply helping my uncle.

The kid that bought it was a friend of a friend of a cousin ...... craziest thing I ever seen.

 

 

 

[Ivan_B]

17 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I wish it was .... It was quite a feat getting it loaded

So you've participated in this... ?

17 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

The kid was smart enough to not drive this thing in the daylight

I am not sure whether or not this would be the correct expression for this kind of behavior ?

[46Chris]

1 hour ago, Ivan_B said:

The ramps are still on the ground, with the truck's wheels sitting on them. Are you sure this is not photoshop or just a staged prank? ?

 

I would recommend renting a truck with a trailer. Their vehicles are inappropriate inside, so take some wet disinfectant napkins with you. Keep in mind that you do not even need the big moving truck, you can just take a small pick-up. It is qualified to tow mostly anything on their trailer. This is how I got my car home. Rented the pick-up and trailer, drove to the car, stayed in the hotel overnight, than towed the car back home for like ~10 hours. Nice and easy, cost about $450 based upon mileage.

 

One important tip: when you go back to the haul to pick-up your own car, which you've left there on the customer's parking lot, about 20 minutes before the closing time, do not forget the keys?

Thanks, Ivan, I've gotten hold of a suitable trailer towing vehicle.   Even if removing the driveshaft wouldn't be complicated, it would be awkward.  I won't have two or three strong backs to push the car up the dolly ramps after the driveshaft is out, which means I'd have to drive it onto the dolly, then jack up the rear, support with jack stands and then take out the driveshaft.  And back home, I'd have to do the same thing in reverse.  What really decided me, though, are the tires.  They are old bias-plys.  One bias-ply explosion was enough for me, years ago.  Tires are near the top of the list if I get the '47.  Now, if the car had a stick and recent-enough DOT dates on the tires, I'd go ahead and dolly it home.  The cost of the trailer is only $10/day more than the dolly.   

 

As to not forgetting keys, you paint a vivid picture.  Something that happened to a friend, I imagine.

[46Chris]

1 hour ago, Ivan_B said:

So you've participated in this... ?

I am not sure whether or not this would be the correct expression for this kind of behavior ?

I marvel at how I've survived all of my poor decisions, at least to date.

[46Chris]

My gratitude and appreciation for all the important guidance from this group, and for making me feel welcome.  Had I not posed the dolly question here, I would not have come to the conclusion that trailering is the only way to go with this '47 if I do buy it.   

 

Thanks for looking out for me.

Photos and a recap when I return later tomorrow.  

Best, Chris

[Ivan_B]

28 minutes ago, 46Chris said:

Photos and a recap when I return later tomorrow.

Good luck!

 

Just out of curiosity, about your bias ply explosion - how old were the tires, how bad did they look and what was the speed\temperature\load? The reason I ask is that I am using old bias ply on my car right now. They do have a DOT number, but no manufacture date (probably made before that was mandatory). There are no cracks and the rubber is still soft, etc. I did replace the inner tubes because the valve stems were cracked. I've actually done some research about how safe these are, and the overall anecdotal evidence appears to be that bias ply seem to be more durable than radials of the same age ?

For the record, I've used some tires manufactured in the early 80s, on an off-road vehicle, before. But that's a bit of a different story.

[rallyace]

I brought my 51 Plymouth Cambridge from Iowa to NY by renting a pickup truck locally from Enterprise Truck Rental (NOT the car rental side of the business) and getting a trailer from U-Haul in Iowa on a one way rental. The last I knew, Enterprise truck rentals were about $100 per day and rentals are about $60 per day. You have to go with a 3/4 ton pickup if you are going to tow with it. When I did it I got a Ford F-250 diesel and we got 17 MPG for the 1900 mile round trip.