splat1955 Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hey Guys, So, here is a pic of the cable that I'm finally getting around to replacing. Don't know how it got shredded like it is, but I didn't do it....the car came to me with this fine cable. So, anyway, I'm going to town to get another one....hopefully in much better condition:) And thanks guys for pics of the bolt on the genny mount. Once I saw the pics, I knew it was probably a lot easier than what I was thinking needed to be done to remove the cable. Didn't even mess with that pan underneath the car as I was going to do....Just loosened the genny belt tensioning bolt and moved the genny enough to remove the belt, then slid the genny toward the fender allowing me to see the lower genny mount and the bolt the cable was mounted to. On my way to town to get a new cable....but while I was gone I was hoping you guys might tell me first, there is also a braided ground that runs from that same bolt up to the regulator on the fender well. What is that ground for? My other request is that maybe you guys can tell me what other grounds I might look at that would have to do with getting my starter to turn a over a little quicker....any that might be dirty, loose, etc. My starter turns over consistently, whether the motor is cold or warm....but I was hoping I might be able to get it to turn a little faster....If not, I can live with it but there seems to have been such a point made here on the forum that grounds are very important to the 6 volt system operating correctly....and that some have had slow starters because of grounds and cables being wrong in gauge size, etc. Anyway, any opinions, ideas and any other info that you could share would be greatly appreciated. Back soon with a new cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 First thing to remember, many of these engiens right up to 42 and maybe later in trucks had a reciever on the crank pully to allow them to be hand cranked for starting. Soooo they don;t need to spin over really quickly to start. Compared to a 12V system they do sond like they're cranking through molasses. However as you said you engine starts well whether hot or cold. Don't break it if its fixed....... As for the wire from the ground post to the VR, some one probably put it there to assure a good ground for the regulator. Probably not a big deal. Also if you want to, a strap added from the firewall to the frame or to the engine, can't hurt either. Head lamps can also benefit greatly from cleaning and tightening the ground wire. I found mine to be corroded and a bit of cleaning and some paint afterward to keep them clean really did help. The ground goes throug the headlamp bucket right into the path of crap thrown off the tire. A seperate wire on the parking lamps to a good ground on the body is a good add on also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Hey Greg, Thanks for the info.....Okay, so you think that braided wire may have been added at some time.....I guess then I'll put it back on with the new cable....of course, the cable had to be ordered. Oh, that was another question. The cables that are on the car now were "00". I go to the " little guy " auto stores to buy parts, even though NAPA is right across the street. Anyway, I was going to have to order the cable if I wanted the exact matching length that was on the car...and I did....so, I decided to go with single "0" cable...and ordered one for both the ground and hot. Nothing wrong with going a little bigger...am I right? I thought I'd read somewhere here if you can get the "0", go with it. They won't be here till Tuesday, but what the heck...gives me a reason to start checking other grounds and wiring. Now, as far as the stap you suggested from the firewall to either the frame or engine block.......is one a better point than the other? I guess I should begin now looking at all the lighting grounds. But, are there any other grounds.....like from body to frame that came stock on my '48 that I should check....cause if so, I'd like to get them all cleaned, making sure they are functional even before adding new. Also, I guess I'd like to use some of that braided ground type wire if I can find it...or is there anything that is more desireable as far as grounding wire. What should the gauge be for any add-on grounds? First thing to remember, many of these engiens right up to 42 and maybe later in trucks had a reciever on the crank pully to allow them to be hand cranked for starting. Soooo they don;t need to spin over really quickly to start. Compared to a 12V system they do sond like they're cranking through molasses. However as you said you engine starts well whether hot or cold. Don't break it if its fixed....... As for the wire from the ground post to the VR, some one probably put it there to assure a good ground for the regulator. Probably not a big deal. Also if you want to, a strap added from the firewall to the frame or to the engine, can't hurt either. Head lamps can also benefit greatly from cleaning and tightening the ground wire. I found mine to be corroded and a bit of cleaning and some paint afterward to keep them clean really did help. The ground goes throug the headlamp bucket right into the path of crap thrown off the tire. A seperate wire on the parking lamps to a good ground on the body is a good add on also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny S Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I think you will see in the chart here that "0" cable is actually smaller than "00" cable. This quote and the table comes from two websites I found discussing cables size.... "Sizing wire for starter cables is not so easy. The usual ABYC tables are set up to size wire for continuous use. With a starter, you have a very high current for a second or so, and then no current at all until next time you start the engine. Your engine manual may specify the expected starter current, or it may specify the CCA rating needed for the start battery which is much the same thing. The ampacity rating of 2/0 wire is 330A and that of 4/0 is 445A, i.e. the maximum continuous current that the wire can handle without overheating. Your starter motor might take 500+A for a brief time. The safe approach is to put on at least 2/0 cable for any starter circuit as even though this has a lower ampacity than the expected current, there is not time for it to heat up significantly. Be careful about repeated attempts at starting". And here is a table of cable sizes: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: AWG Copper Wire Table size - Diam (mils) - Ohms/1000ft - feet per pound 0000 ---- 460 ------ 0.050 ------- 1.56 000 ----- 410 ------ 0.063 ------ 1.96 00 ------ 365 ------ 0.077 ------ 2.4826 0 ------- 324.85 --- 0.096 ------ 3.1305 1 ------- 289.3 --- 0.1264 ------ 3.947 2 ------- 257.6 --- 0.1593 ------ 4.977 3 ------- 229.4 --- 0.2009 ------ 6.276 4 ------- 204.3 --- 0.2533 ------ 7.914 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hey Johnny, Ya know.......When I was in the store......I could swear I asked the guy to let me see a " 0 " cable.....he didn't have one...but told me it was going to be bigger than what I had brought into the store, my worn out old one. Maybe I told him to let me see a " 00 " cable. So anyway, I took his word for it.....So, now there is probably a good chance that the cable I have is " 00" and the ones he's ordered for me are going to be 00 as well. Hmmm, just to be sure, I'm going to take mine in with me and eye ball them both......and bring home what I need. I may have it all backwards too.....I may have the 0 and have ordered the 00......Tuesday will tell me for sure. Thanks for the chart info too..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Either way you should be good. Factory spec is 1 gauge and either way you are better then that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hey, thanks guys.....I didn't know that factory spec was 1 gauge.....so even what I was using would have been sufficient. And Shel, yeah, I'll check the conductor in the book when I pick them up on Tuesday. The cable from my neg to solenoid is in perfect condition...so, if it turns out I'm already running 00 cables, I'm only going to spring for the one I need to replace rather than both. Hey, does anyone know where I can pick up that old style braided ground cable that you see on a lot of the older cars.....I'd like to add some ground straps as Greg recommended in a reply above....but not sure if I can just walk into any auto parts store and get it. Otherwise.....what do you guys recommend as far as type of wire and size for added grounds...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 try tractor supply if you parts house can't get one for the bat. summit racing sells these for other needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT-47P15 Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hi Splat.....do you have any battery specialty stores in your area? We have one here called "Battery Outfitters". I'd imagine there are similar stores by other names everywhere. I went to them and they cut cables to match the ones I brlought in, then crimped on new ends. Ended up with 00, because they were out of 0 that day. I had 4 cables made and the cost was about $35. Needed a couple extra due to the cutoff switch. I will say that my 47 Plym started fine for many years with a couple of those skinny 12 volt cables (before I learned on this forum that I needed heavier wire). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Hey Bob....thanks for the info....I'm going to have to look around for a specialty store the next time I'm down in Sacramento or Folsum....Up here there aren't any....at least not that I've found....but good idea for me to look into the next time I go down the mountain. Hi Splat.....do you have any battery specialty stores in your area? We have one here called "Battery Outfitters". I'd imagine there are similar stores by other names everywhere. I went to them and they cut cables to match the ones I brlought in, then crimped on new ends. Ended up with 00, because they were out of 0 that day. I had 4 cables made and the cost was about $35. Needed a couple extra due to the cutoff switch.I will say that my 47 Plym started fine for many years with a couple of those skinny 12 volt cables (before I learned on this forum that I needed heavier wire). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Well guys, After thinking it through......and going back in to town and stopping by the " small guy " parts store I like to use....I got to talk to the older guy I usually work with when I'm in the store.....Been there forever. Anyway, as was stated in an earlier post, stock cables would have been 2 gauge....the cables I have on my car are 1 gauge. He pretty much convinced me that I'm safe staying with 1 gauge. He also looked up my order and I had ordered 00 gauge cables. He said that was going to be a cut and dried case of Overkill. He said I could go with 0 gauge...but unless I was running a couple of batteries or a starter that required that much cable, going with 1 gauge was going to be more than sufficient. So, I just ordered the one cable I needed...which saved me about $15 bucks....plus over in the " Help " section, I found a 15" braided ground cable...perfect sized ends on it so am going to take Gregs advise and add one. I never really got an answer on this question though, which is the best way to go.....Adding the new ground from the body/firewall to the block or from the body/firewall to the frame? Any input? Thanks again guys for all the info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 Thanks Shel.....yeah, I think your right about priority being the engine/body ground. I can't think of anything either but was thinking that my Jeepster had a ground from the fuel tank ..or sender...can't remember now....but it went to the frame. Don't know about these though....maybe I will do both in time...but for now, I only got the one ground strap. Hey.......I could use a small coffee.....now I just have to find the $1.50...... Splat, I would worry more about engine to body. All your electricals are in and on the body and engine. Can't think of any that are hooked to the frame on our cars. You could do both.Just my opinion. That and a buck and a half will get you a small coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybose Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 When I redid my battery cables I ran a 00 cable from the battery to the starter bolt, then ran individual #4 jumpers from the bolt to the body and the frame. Overkill probably, but I don't think I'll ever have an ground problems! Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 He also looked up my order and I had ordered 00 gauge cables. He said that was going to be a cut and dried case of Overkill. . Big question I have is if you originally ordered "00" gauge cables then why did you not get what you ordered? In a perfect system with good connections everywhere and an engine tuned to start as soon as you hit the button smaller gauge cables may work well. But on an old car with a less than perfect system 00 cables are not overkill in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Don, I'm still learning about these 6V systems. In the book the guy at the parts store had there were actual size pictures of the different gauges sitting side by side. The #1 gauge that I have in the car have been working fine, even though a chunk had been shaved off of the ground cable as seen in the pic. He looked up the factory specs and found that the stock gauge had been #2. But then looking at the 00 gauge wire, it was definitely much thicker than the #1 I was using. He suggested that I stay with the #1 or could go 0 gauge if I wanted...but that in his opinion 00 would be overkill. And to be honest, since I wasn't having nor had I ever had a problem with the system, I decided to save a little money and stay with the 1 gauge and then only have to purchase the neg cable that was bad since the positive side was still like new. Sure, maybe 0 or 00 gauge would be a better fix...especially if there were issues....but right now, I am doing some other fixes on the suspension, so I figured money would be better spent on that right now. Can always boost cable size at any time. Big question I have is if you originally ordered "00" gauge cables then why did you not get what you ordered? In a perfect system with good connections everywhere and an engine tuned to start as soon as you hit the button smaller gauge cables may work well. But on an old car with a less than perfect system 00 cables are not overkill in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Hey Marty, Can you explain what you did in a little more detail? Which starter bolt are you referring too? Hey, I just read the post about taking Don to the ship yard. Hey, if I can ever make it down that way, I'd sure like to take my daughter and wife on that tour.....We've been up here almost 6 years...and still haven't made it to SF...... When I redid my battery cables I ran a 00 cable from the battery to the starter bolt, then ran individual #4 jumpers from the bolt to the body and the frame. Overkill probably, but I don't think I'll ever have an ground problems!Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Don't forget when it comes to DC current that the number of conductor is paramount in performance also..compare regular 1 guage battery cable to 1 guage welding cable...make a believer out of you..I just cut and fitted the multi-strand welding cable to the 54 this weekend..those who say size does not matter always come up short... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 So...are you guys saying that I should have gone with 0 or 00? Is my starter going to spin any faster than it does now? I ask cause before replacing the neg cable ( and as you can see in the pic, it needed replacing) I have had no issues with the electrical system....none. Being new to the whole 6V systems, I felt like the starter was a bit sluggish...but have been told that is one of the traits of the 6V system. I've resigned to the fact that I'm just used to the spinning characteristics of a 12V system...and I've got to get used to the slowness of the 6V starter....So, unless changing to 00 is going to make my 6V starter spin noticably faster....I really don't see the point in spending the extra cash at this time for larger cables. That few bucks I am saving on the cables can be put to a few other things the car will need. Granted, if I was having a problem with the system, and then it was recommended that 0 or 00 gauge cables were going to resolve my issue, I'd jump all over them....but, that's not the case here. Very soon the cars going to be parked through the winter, the battery will be pulled and put on a tender so when it's time to pull it out of storage, I'm betting those #1 gauge cables will be every bit as sufficient then as they are today for starting the car. This almost sounds like it would be worth Polling...maybe asking how many out there with 6V systems are running thicker cables and the 2 gauge....and if so, which gauge cable are they running? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Forget the poll..we all are if running 6 volt.........and .............if you are running remote battery setups..like placing box in the trunk..I recommend a larger cable and multi strand if you can get you hands on it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobT-47P15 Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 The 00 gauge cable I got is about as big around as my finger. A little tough to bend. Made my starter turn a little faster, but nothing miraculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 Tim I bet there is a lot of variance between us though. I'm running 1 gauge on both my truck and car. I bet others are running 0 or 00 or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 I stick with either 0 guage or minimum 1 guage welding cable..the weld cable is better and more flexible.. http://gencable.com/newgenweb/weldradblack.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybose Posted November 13, 2007 Report Share Posted November 13, 2007 My 00 cable ran to the starter motor upper mounting bolt. This 00 cable was custom-made with an additional #4 pigtail that I secured to the front clutch pivot frame mount bolt, then I ran a #4 jumper from that same clutch pivot frame mount bolt to a convenient bolt on the body in the same general vicinity, with star washers at all points. As far as the shipyard tour, just give me a few days notice and be prepared to be here in Alameda early in the day, and anyone is welcome. There's also a world famous Zinfandel wine cellar (Rosenblum) is the area, so you could end the day there! Marty Hey Marty, Can you explain what you did in a little more detail? Which starter bolt are you referring too? Hey, I just read the post about taking Don to the ship yard. Hey, if I can ever make it down that way, I'd sure like to take my daughter and wife on that tour.....We've been up here almost 6 years...and still haven't made it to SF...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
splat1955 Posted November 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2007 Okay Marty, I kind of understand what you did....from your Postive post....instead of running straight over to the engine block or, like in my case, to the generator mount, you ran your 00 cable to the upper starter mount bolt....but then tied into that connection, the pigtail lead in #4, you ran over to the frame...and again another pigtail in #4 to the cab/body. Have I got that right? If so, that sounds like a good safe strong ground....got everything covered. Did you make up the 00 cable with the pigtails or did you have someone make them up? I've hunted around here and there just doesn't seem to be any battery places up here...of course, there's not a whole lot up here of anything. I guess I can talk to the guys at the parts place to find out if there's anyone up here that builds the cables.....there has to be with all the tractors and equiptment up here. Anyway, thanks guys for all your input. I will probably upgrade to larger cables at some point but for now, I'm going to finish the suspension work before winter hits and get a few miles on it. Although it's been registered, insured and running since the first week I brought it home at the end of August, I haven't had a chance to put many miles on it....probably only 50 so far. Oh, I was going to ask, is there any problem going with say....00 on the positive ground side and 0 on the solenoid side? Oh, and Marty....thanks for the invite...yeah, I'd give you plenty of notice......that would be great though...Thanks again! My 00 cable ran to the starter motor upper mounting bolt. This 00 cable was custom-made with an additional #4 pigtail that I secured to the front clutch pivot frame mount bolt, then I ran a #4 jumper from that same clutch pivot frame mount bolt to a convenient bolt on the body in the same general vicinity, with star washers at all points.As far as the shipyard tour, just give me a few days notice and be prepared to be here in Alameda early in the day, and anyone is welcome. There's also a world famous Zinfandel wine cellar (Rosenblum) is the area, so you could end the day there! Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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