Weekend work

[Los_Control]

I kinda built up my opinion or thinking, on the subject.

 

I'm going to give Rustyhope some credit for their engineering, They know the castle nut is a issue.

 

Their work around is to flip the nut around. And end of problem.    We know we can modify the nut & make it work ....

 

I'm just guessing they have more engineering skills then I do.

I assume they know about the castle nut issue, If they thought a thinner spacer would be better they would suggest it or include it in their kit.

 

So I ask myself, why did they just not include a thinner spacer to fix the issue?

Seems it would be easier for them to just change the thickness of the spacer in the kit .... instead they recommend to run a thinner nut or to flip the original nut backwards then end the problem.

 

So just a WAG, Rustyhope chose to keep the spacers the same & flipping the nuts was the lesser of two evils. Why did they choose this decision?

Could be money or it could be they knew what thickness spacers were needed.

 

Then I ask, why is flipping the castle nut so bad?

What is the procedure for setting the front wheel bearings, snug it up then back it off.  The castle nut is barely over finger tight & is the cotter key that holds it in place.

 

We really do have to wonder just how important the castle nut is, how important the cotter key is ... will the castle nut perform as expected with it turned around?

Just saying @sniper I never saw anyone say the nut would not work backwards ... I would be concerned with adequate amounts of threads on the nut.

 

I would simply ask @sniper to consider this before going off on a wild goose chase.

[Sniper]

58 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

I'm just guessing they have more engineering skills then I do.

 

I would not bet money on that.

 

Having done their swap I detailed a number of issues I saw in the thread I posted on it. 

 

To sum up those issues.  It appears they found a hub and rotor assembly that would fit the spindle.  Problem is there is no inner seal that will work with this.  So they made a spacer that makes up the difference and allows you to use the rotor/hub seal.  A good thing there.

 

Problem with the spacer is that it also spaces the rotor away from the upright.  This is why the castle nut issues arises.

 

The reason the rotor is spaced away is that it will likely hit the caliper adapter without the spacing.  Eyeball spec there, haven't measured it yet. 

 

The caliper adapter spaces the stock steering arms inward about 3/8", on each side.  It appears that takes all the toe out adjustment away.  I haven't got to the alignment yet so we will see.  Using their adapter setup requires you to drill out and tap the two bottom holes on the upright, to 5/8-18.  You are also required to drill out the holes in the steering arms, making this a swap you cannot undo to stock if you decided to. 

 

Once assembled, it does clear my stock 15" rims without issue, a good thing.

 

Other things I ran across is the instructions.  They are minimalistic at best.  For example, there is no torque specifications for anything.  The caliper bolts (28 ft/lbs), the brake hose banjo bolt (34 ft/lbs) or the bolts that bolt the caliper adapter to the upright (144 ft/lbs).  In fact for that last one the instructions say to torque those bolt to a specification adequate for grade 5 5/8-18 bolts.  Took some digging on my part to find the caliper mount and banjo bolt specs.  I have a chart for the other bolts but he neglects to mention it's plated, which does affect the torque specification.

 

The biggest failure of the instructions though, was the fact that the caliper adapter was too narrow for the caliper to mount to it.  Took me two days of searching to find the GM tsb that detailed the clearance required.  Then I could use my belt sander to widen the mount sufficiently to mount the caliper. 

 

it works, but it could be so much better with little effort on RH's part.

[Sniper]

Geez, all that and I forgot to cover the spindle nut issue.  I am not suing the stock castle nut setup.  Therefore, flipping it around isn't an option.  Well, I could flip the nut but it would do nothing.  I don't like the stock setup, it isn't as precise a setup and I don't want any rotor wobble causing pad kick back.  But yeah, I am kind of picky about that kind of stuff.

[Los_Control]

Well what you have too say pretty much puts Rustyhope out of business.

 

I do have to wonder why it has been working for others for years.

I'm not exactly convinced .... I think I will use mine.

 

[Sniper]

I gave an honest appraisal of what I saw on the kit I got.  Your kit will obviously be different.  How well it works you will have to tell us.

 

Most aftermarket kits have issues.  What those issues are vary.  Ordinarily I would just use factory stuff like when I put discs on my 65 Cuda.  No issues with fit there.

[Adam H P15 D30]

Has his kits changed over the last 5 years, I had none of these issues.  As you can see my castle nut fit fine, as did my calipers...

[Adam H P15 D30]

Oh and as for the caliper bracket bolts, 1/2" impact tight with lots of red locktite worked fine.

[Los_Control]

GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Has his kits changed over the last 5 years, I had none of these issues.  As you can see my castle nut fit fine, as did my calipers...

 

 

Must have since the castle nut issue is directly addressed in the instructions.  I added those instructions to the download section here so you can go see for yourself.

 

 

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Oh and as for the caliper bracket bolts, 1/2" impact tight with lots of red locktite worked fine.

 

Yes, I have cleaned up after many who think like that.

Edited July 13, 2022 by Sniper
added link

[Adam H P15 D30]

Instructions haven't changed.  Maybe you're not getting the spacer on all the way?  I had to tap mine on

 

FWIW, Unlikely to mess up a 5/8 fine thread bolt with a 1/2 inch impact unless you can't cut simple threads...

[Sniper]

31 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

FWIW, Unlikely to mess up a 5/8 fine thread bolt with a 1/2 inch impact unless you can't cut simple threads

 

Bolts are essentially springs, they clamp a load together.  Too loose and it doesn't hold the load, too tight and the bolt exceeds it's modulus of elasticity.  If you have ever had a bolt go soft on you as you were tightening it, well you just felt it exceed it's modulus of elasticity.   

 

Not using a device to measure, or infer, it's clamping load you have no idea if, as Goldilock's might say, it is too loose, too tight or just right.

 

So to imply you can't mess up a bolt, of any size, by randomly tightening it up is patently false and if you properly tightened it would not need "lots of red locktite".

 

37 minutes ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

Instructions haven't changed.  Maybe you're not getting the spacer on all the way?  I had to tap mine on

 

If the instructions haven't changed when why does it have a section covering this issue if there is no problem?

[Adam H P15 D30]

12 hours ago, Sniper said:

If the instructions haven't changed when why does it have a section covering this issue if there is no problem?

My instructions don't have page 7, otherwise identical.  Funny, on page 7 he mentions the spindle nut issue but in prior pages the pictures clearly show the spindle nut correctly installed.  I would choose the third option for the spindle nut.

[kencombs]

2 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

My instructions don't have page 7, otherwise identical.  Funny, on page 7 he mentions the spindle nut issue but in prior pages the pictures clearly show the spindle nut correctly installed.  I would choose the third option for the spindle nut.

I would bet over the span of years, the hub that is being used and the original spindles varied in size.  Parts built over a long span of years, especially with multiple assembly plants, often have different sources.  In theory they are all to be built to the same specs, but there are always tolerances.   Max length hub, minimum length spindle and there you are/1

Edited July 14, 2022 by kencombs

[Sniper]

Got some more work done on the Plymouth yesterday.  My son helped out.  Changed out two messed up bleeders on the rear wheel cylinders, they are not not metric at all, lol.  Pulled the RPV out of the master cylinder, mangled up my thumb on that one when the end cap finally let loose.  Bled the brakes.

 

Changed the gear oil in the rear axle and the transmission.  Rear oil was black, trans oil more of a caramel color.  No funky smells, well other than the normal gear oil funky smell.  Found 3.9F stamped on the center section, so that clarifies what gear I do have.  Not sure what the F means.

 

Got the tires all installed, dropped the car down off the jack stands and torqued the axle shaft nuts, put in new cotter pins.  Torqued the wheels.  Got about 5 hours work in when my body decided I was done working.  Had to leaved the cleanup to my son as I was done.   I really need a closed in garage, at least.  The swamp cooler was overwhelmed in the carport

[Bryan]

On 7/17/2022 at 2:45 PM, Sniper said:

Got about 5 hours work in when my body decided I was done working.  Had to leaved the cleanup to my son as I was done.   I really need a closed in garage, at least.  The swamp cooler was overwhelmed in the carport

Sounds like me. Got 4 hours in today jacking the car up in the woods, moving blocks.  Could hardly get back in the truck. Puling a floor jack around in pine straw is hard work.

[Sniper]

Well, the son and I finally got around to doing the alignment today.  

 

Caster spec is 0 degrees, got .3 positive.  Wanted more but not happening.

Camber got .25 degrees. in spec

Ackerman checked out to spec.

 

Toe, otoh got the pass side in spec at 1/32", driver's side is at 1/2", yes .5 inch toe in.  Total toe spec is 1/16" in.  The issues is that the Rusty Hope brake kit put a 3/8" plate between the upright and the steering arm.  the pass side can accommodate that added plate, the driver's side cannot.  Yet another issue with this kit that was not mentioned.

 

Solutions vary, I could have possible cut down the sleeve, but that would require tapping added threads as the sleeve is just threaded enough to accept the tie rod completely screwed in.  A quality tap from McMaster Carr is in excess of $60, about $80 more if I wanted the LHT as well.  A kwality RHT tap from Amazon was just under $18 with $6 shipping. 

 

Now I happen to know that various Chrysler products use the same 11/16-18 thread size on their tie rods.  After looking about I found the 74-78 C bodies use a sleeve that is just about 2" shorter and will work.  It's about an inch shorter than ideal but it will work regardless.  From my local parts store it's cheaper than the kwaity tap.

 

Yet another gotcha to look for.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Sniper

[Sniper]

Well, I got the C body sleeve installed and eyeballed the toe today.  I don't know that I like how much of the tie rod threads are exposed.  The stock sleeve was ~10", the C body is ~ 8", I really wanted something around 9" but alas, no luck finding that.  This was the last job I did today, tomorrow, maybe, the alignment gets done.

 

I cleaned up a leak at the thermostat housing, put in some drain cocks in the radiator and block that have nipples for a hose.  Hopefully, this is the last coolant mess I make with this car, lol.  I then got out my fancy, new to me, Craftsman Engine Analyzer.  Voltmeter reads high compared to my calibrated Fluke, about 1 volt high at 13 volts.  Dwell is reading about 26 degrees, both with the Craftsman and the Actron meters, hmm.  I know I set it to spec last tune up.  My timing was about 10 degrees advances, fixed that.  Tomorrow, before the engine gets all hot I'll set the gap.  Set the idle rpm for 650, rather than the 900 it was at.    Tightened up some leaky hose clamps.  Let it run for about a half hour looking for leaks, the electric fan cycled on and off as expected, used my IR gun to verify. 

 

the analyzer

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sniper

[Sniper]

Well, I got the DIY alignment done today.  Took it to the Shell station and filled it up, 15 gallons in a 17 gallon tank, lol.  Took it to the car wash and cleaned her up.  Drove by the inspection station, long line so I passed on it for today.  Works going to keep me busy for the rest of the week so probably Saturday.  

 

Drove nice and straight though.  Disc's work but I think I need to update the master cylinder.  We'll see, I have a brake pressure gauge kit so when my son is over we'll get some numbers.  Net project is probably going to be pulling the timing cover and fixing that oil leak, probably the pan too.  I have all the gaskets and a Speedi-sleeve coming.  Probably should order that seal driver kit too, lol.  oops, doesn't look like it has a driver big enough.  Need an 81mm, it has a 74mm, that might work though, we will see.

[Adam H P15 D30]

What's happening to make you want to change the master cylinder, besides the safety factor of a dual master?  

[Los_Control]

IIRC, my chebby truck the large reservoir is for the fluid on front disk brakes, while the small reservoir feeds the rear wheel cylinders-drum brakes.

 

This suggest to me the larger disk brake calipers require more fluid to function properly?

 

Interesting the original master does operate the new disk brakes .... I was kinda under the impression a modern master cylinder swap was mandatory for a disk brake swap. .... Opinion probably fueled by the thought I want a dual reservoir anyways even with original drum brakes.

 

2 years ago 40 miles from home, a panic stop blew a rear wheel cylinder. Brakes were good enough to drive home and fix later.

[Sniper]

8 hours ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

What's happening to make you want to change the master cylinder, besides the safety factor of a dual master?  

 

As Los alluded to, safety.  I once had a wheel cylinder blow out on my 64 300, single pot master cylinder.  No brakes at all so then I stomped the parking brake pedal and it tore the end off the cable and no parking brake.  So I down shifted and made a hard right to avoid going straight into a swamp. 

 

Plus the pedal travel seems long, but it;s been a while since I drove it so that might just be normal too.

[Sniper]

Well, the 51 is back on the road.  Got the state safety inspection and registration done this morning.  It stops good, haven't tried real hard to lock them up though.  Goes down the road straight stops straight.  This coming weekend I will probably drop the oil pan an timing cover to fix the oil leaks.  I have all teh gaskets needed, but I am seriously considering using The Right Stuff gasket maker instead of the cork oil pan gaskets.  Anyone do this with success, or any other successful methods?

[Los_Control]

I wonder what I would do .... I hear right stuff is really good and worth the price for admission.

I hate cork gaskets for valve covers. Seems they  always leak. While decent modern rubber gaskets work really well.

 

Since modern gaskets are not available for the oil pan.

I would probably use the old permatex gasket shellac compound to glue the cork gasket to the pan one side only. Then use the right stuff on the tough areas near the front & rear seals. .... Thats pretty old school though.

 

Just curious did they drive your car?

I believe that is a requirement to have a inspector drive the vehicle to check drive-ability  brakes, steering, etc...

My town they do not bother .... The inspector sits at his desk .... usually on the phone .... directs you to operate your lights, horn, wiper etc... If you get stuck with his daughter .... she will walk around & check your tires and dry rot on wipers. .... for the $7.50 they are allowed to charge they do not get excited, anything obvious they will fail you.

[Sniper]

24 minutes ago, Los_Control said:

Just curious did they drive your car?

 

Yes they do.  That's where I take all my persona vehicles for the last 20 years or so, they drive them all.

[Los_Control]

A small town there is only one station in town to do the inspection. ... Often I pull up for inspection & 1 or 2 ahead of me.

Sometimes 3 ..... Because they are a towing company that also works for the state .... Recovers semi's/accidents from the freeway, They do impounds for the police department, they have  mechanic station for repairs ....

 

Just saying every citizen here goes through the same procedure ... The Mayor, The police chief, the ladies at the tax office accepting the inspection to grant you a new registration ....  If you have to wait, the old dog will nip at most people .... for some reason He lies near me & lets me give attention. .... Is what it is. .... Small towns rule!