Rack and pinion in my ‘48 Plymouth

[Scott Knecht]

Don’t feel bad Bob.  I did pretty much the same thing never doing this before.  I basically started from scratch with a bare front end not knowing better.   But as I’ve learned so far it’s not impossible to overcome mistakes.  With a little research into suspension geometry and a little trial and error, it should be fine.  My design may be one of a kind due to the engine I’m using, oil pan, headers, etc, but so far it seems as it should work well.  I’m onto the steering column mods now so I should have a working system soon.  Key for me was taking my time and test thoroughly before final welds.  

[Bob Riding]

39 minutes ago, Scott Knecht said:

Don’t feel bad Bob.  I did pretty much the same thing never doing this before.  I basically started from scratch with a bare front end not knowing better.   But as I’ve learned so far it’s not impossible to overcome mistakes.  With a little research into suspension geometry and a little trial and error, it should be fine.  My design may be one of a kind due to the engine I’m using, oil pan, headers, etc, but so far it seems as it should work well.  I’m onto the steering column mods now so I should have a working system soon.  Key for me was taking my time and test thoroughly before final welds.  

Thanks Scott. I will keep following your progress. I too was thing about adapting the column shifter to my 200R OD tranny. News at 11!

[Scott Knecht]

We’re steering!
Sorry the pictures uploaded all out of order! 
Spent a couple days cobbling up the steering shaft.  So starting with the stock column, and after some careful decision making and figuring out the placement of the wheel, I ultimately cut 27” off the bottom of the tube and a lesser amount of the stock shaft.  I came up with the 27”by also moving the column tube in towards the dash 3”.  This resulted in a much more comfortable position of the steering wheel compared to the hanging in space and in your face feel of the factory location.  I also moved the column mount on the dash to the left about 1” and angled slightly to the left. There was one extra hole in the dash already from the factory and I just drilled another on the other side).  I welded a piece of the 3/4” double D shaft to the end of the stock shaft to mount my upper steering u-joint.  (I could’ve used a round weld on joint but I wanted to be able to remove or change easily if needed). 
Scrounging through the tool box I found an old 3/4” ID John Deere mower bearing that fit the shaft.  I made up a quick adapter from a piece of 2” exhaust tubing slotted to tighten down on the bearing and to reduce diameter to weld the other end to the steering column tube.  Then I made up a   band clamp from a piece of 1/8” flat stock to squeeze the bearing fast.  After assembling it all it seems to work fine.  
I will weld the band clamp to a brace at some point to hold the lower end of the column in place and make it rigid.  (I’m mounting my brake system to the fire wall because of clearance issues with the stock under floor system. I’ll probably weld that clamp to whatever I come up with for the brake support) 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Scott Knecht
Pictures uploaded all out of order

[Sniper]

Very nice work, attention to detail shows.

[Scott Knecht]

Thanks Sniper.  I keep having to remind myself this is a rat rod project. Lol. As I’ve said I’ve restored many vehicles where you’re just bolting the factory parts back together.  This is my first try at this much adapting parts from other cars.  It’s fun though.  

[Bob Riding]

Awesome, again. I'm taking notes!

What are your plans for adapting the column shift to your AT transmission?

[Scott Knecht]

Thanks Bob.  Pretty much using as much of the factory  shifter rod as possible.  I’ll make some kind of support near the firewall since the column no longer exists in that space.  Also fab up a lock position for park somehow.  Then I’ll probably use small heim joints and some rods to figure out a linkage.  Might need to build a bell crank set up or something to get the direction I need.  As you say, news at 11! Hahaha 

[Scott Knecht]

Okay my friends.  Here’s a quick update of the ‘48. So I made a quick brake master cylinder bracket out of a piece of stop sign post and some 3/8” steel for the pedal with a 5.3 to 1 pedal ratio for decent manual brake force. I also fabbed up a pad mount which locates the factory pedal pad securely.  I turned it sideways because I think it looks better by itself without the clutch pedal. I used 1/8” plate for the firewall reinforcement. I’m moving  the master cylinder to the firewall  since there’s not enough room under the floor with exhaust and what not. Welded to the stop sign post I made a steering column mount out of 1/4” steel flat stock to bolt the lower steering column clamp which squeezes the bearing  in place.  It holds the column super tight! 
Made my own brake pedal clevis from 1/4” flat stock and a grade 8 bolt cut to the proper length. 
You could totally mount the column though without a brake upgrade by simply making a bracket to tie the firewall and dash together and a bracket to the column.  
So I’m curious should I start a new thread or keep this one going since my steering is done??

Let me know. 

Edited May 24, 2021 by Scott Knecht
Pictures uploaded sideways

[Bob Riding]

Hey Scott,

That looks great! I think a new thread would be good.

 

[wagoneer]

Going on the original theme here, I saw this remanufactured version of a power steering rack on eBay that fits the 48-53 dodge trucks. Is this just a packaged version of what others here are cobbling together ?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123886369175

 

[Bob Riding]

1 hour ago, wagoneer said:

Going on the original theme here, I saw this remanufactured version of a power steering rack on eBay that fits the 48-53 dodge trucks. Is this just a packaged version of what others here are cobbling together ?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123886369175

 

Never seen that listed before. I've contacted the seller to see if it will fit '49-'52 Plymouths.

 

[Scott Knecht]

1 hour ago, wagoneer said:

Going on the original theme here, I saw this remanufactured version of a power steering rack on eBay that fits the 48-53 dodge trucks. Is this just a packaged version of what others here are cobbling together ?

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/123886369175

 

Hmmm. Not sure how that would work on a car.  The idea from what I understand is to have the center attachment points for the inner tie rods so they mimic the original steering and follow the arc of the lower A-arm to eliminate bump steer. 
I’m not sure though how the truck suspension is designed.  

[Sniper]

4 minutes ago, Scott Knecht said:

I’m not sure though how the truck suspension is designed.

 

Probably leaf sprung solid axle.

[Frank Elder]

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

 

Probably leaf sprung solid axle.

All the way up to 1971, in 72 Dodge changed over to ifs.

[Scott Knecht]

1 minute ago, Frank Elder said:

All the way up to 1971, in 72 Dodge changed over to ifs.

That makes sense 

[wagoneer]

43 minutes ago, Bob Riding said:

Never seen that listed before. I've contacted the seller to see if it will fit '49-'52 Plymouths.

 

 

I sent the seller a message asking two questions:

 

1. Does the original steering column + remote control shifter in Dodge B2B connect into the new steering box.

2. Do they offer a similar option for the Chrysler Windsor. 

 

His answer was simply 'Yes'... which I presume was for question #1. Follow up for #2. 

 

even for $1,000, that's probably worth it for all the engineering and parts time spent fabricating and putting all the parts together ourselves, presuming it works as advertised. 

 

I'm considering it now for my B2B.. as it's for my wife... ?

 

 

As a bit of an aside, I've seen kits for power steering, power windows, disk brakes with in-place  dual master cylinders,  6v Alternators with 100amps, A/C that could easily adapt to our rides. You can do 12v conversion, or there is a handy 6v->12v  modules for USB ports. Unless you really need an infotainment center in the glovebox 

 

Only missing bit may be overdrive (see Merle's thread) or gear reductions in our differentials to really give it 75 mph comfortably.  If I knew more (which somebody certainly does), I'd probably go and have the gears made to the necessary specification [ e.g. https://www.rushgears.com/services/prototypes ] .

 

 

I guess these old gals do need a bit of a makeover, but nothing that would take away from their original charm while bringing them to the comfort level of "modern" day highway life. 

 

I've seen a lot of chassis swaps here, but for all the work, rather add on the updated modern necessities 

Edited May 26, 2021 by wagoneer

[wagoneer]

 

He came back to me regarding the Windsor - No.

 

Truck only at this time though probably would be a good starting point given the existing work others have done. Just need to change how the rack mounts.

 

[Scott Knecht]

Good to know

[Racer-X-]

On 3/12/2021 at 3:55 PM, Scott Knecht said:

So the FatMan kit came earlier this week.  I’m a bit underwhelmed at what you get for $324.  But as I said before why reinvent the wheel.  Plus I get it.  These guys put all the time into designing and testing their product to keep us hot rodders rolling along.  There is also a fairly comprehensive instruction sheet included.  Hope to get started on this once I button up the engine and trans and get them installed. Stay tuned.  

 

I found the kit to be a little "underwhelming" as well when I saw the installation on Elvis, the 1947 DeSoto I've been working on.

 

On Elvis, the taper on the outer tie rod ends looks small for the steering arms.  I'm not sure if that happens on every car this kit fits, but ours, the nut goes so far down the threads that the cotter pin doesn't engage the castle nut, and the nut is free to turn and loosen, although it shouldn't come off because the cotter pin is at least blocking it from coming entirely off. I had reservations about this kit from seeing that.

 

Then, our driver hit a pot hole at about 20-25mph, and this happened:

 

 

Here's a close up of the failed coupler from the kit:

 

 

We were lucky.  The failure happened at relative low speed.  The only damage, other than the failed coupler was a bent wheel.  It also happened a couple hundred yards from the trailer he was about to load the car onto, so there wasn't even a towing issue involved. He did regret not buying the optional winch on his trailer, and we're looking at adding a winch to it now.  

 

Back to Elvis, I have already installed more correct outer tie rods, and I had a local machine shop turn out a pair of new adjusters/couplers for the tie rods.  This pic shows the old ones (both the failed one and the one that hasn't failed yet), beside the new outer tie rod ends and the new adjusters.

 

 

If anyone else wants to do this upgrade to their setup, David Carlisi at Linkage Solutions in Cumming Georgia made our new adjusters.  They weren't cheap.  He'll do a pair of them in 303 Stainless (that's what we got) for $380.  A pair in 1018 mild steel will be $330 or $340 he said.  The cost of a failure at highway speed could be much higher, and could include injuries.  As I said, we were very lucky this happened at only 20-25mph on our car.

 

The outer tie rod ends are Napa part number ES60R  (Made in China, but available quickly). If you want higher quality parts, RockAuto has Delphi TA5398 or Moog ES158R listed for these applications. I think the  Moog and Delphi ones use a larger castle nut and aren't stepped down on that end.  When our Napa outer ends wear, we'll likely go to the Moog part for the replacement.

 

Oh, and you'll also need Jam nuts for the outer tie rod shaft.  SpeedwayMotors had them in stainless steel for $4.99 each. That's where we're getting ours.  They're on the way and should be here Monday.

 

Here's a gallery with more pix of the failed parts and a few pics of our new upgraded replacement parts.

 

 

[Scott Knecht]

Wow Racer X that’s a disconcerting situation.  Now you have me second guessing the quality here.   I’m spending money like a drunkin’ sailor trying to get my rod up and running. The last thing I need is to spend more. Lol

I did make shorter steering arms on the same plane side to side to get the same turning radius with the Cavalier rack and also used two passenger side inner tie rods to eliminate the funky angle

of the factory Cavalier driver's side piece.  I also made a revised center mount to get the inner pivots as high as possible to the oil pan and in line with the A-arm pivots. (I had to move the rack closer to the driver’s side for header clearance reasons) It totally eliminated my bump steer problem which I’m sure puts undue stress on steering components.  All my mods also put the tie rod end ball joints in a 90 degree neutral alignment at ride height which I believe will further reduce unwanted forces on the steering.  But I have to say I questioned the strength of those tie rod “sleeves” when I took them out of the box.  

Thanks for sharing this info.  You may have saved some rides from a nastier fate!

Also just curious did you contact FatMan fabrications about this problem? Or wherever you got the kit? 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Scott Knecht
Spelling

[Scott Knecht]

Racer X this was the crazy angle I had on my rod ends at ride height with the factory long steering arms.  At full on suspension compression it would exceed the angle limit of the ball joint.  Not sure if you had any of these problems or not or if that contributed to your failure? 

I don’t have a recent close up of the revised set up but it now has a more neutral “at rest” orientation.  But yes I still think the adjuster sleeve is scary looking for strength.   

[Racer-X-]

1 hour ago, Scott Knecht said:

I did make shorter steering arms on the same plane side to side to get the same turning radius with the Cavalier rack and also used two passenger side inner tie rods to eliminate the funky angle

I'm interested in how the shorter steering arms were done. We've got the turning radius of a heavy cruiser or battleship on Elvis.  I really need to do something with that.  My other thread covers some questions about the current steering arms, and the possibility of shorter off the shelf parts that fit, or of making something shorter.

 

I'm not liking the driver's side inner tie rod piece either.  Good to know that running two passenger side rods is a possibility. That's something I was thinking about. I think I'll pull the trigger on that and order the parts while I have this thing apart this far.

 

1 hour ago, Scott Knecht said:

 I also made a revised center mount to get the inner pivots as high as possible to the oil pan and in line with the A-arm pivots.

That's an interesting setup.  I think the rack is mounted higher than yours in Elvis.  I'll try to shoot some pix from the front next time I'm over there.

 

1 hour ago, Scott Knecht said:

Racer X this was the crazy angle I had on my rod ends at ride height with the factory long steering arms.  At full on suspension compression it would exceed the angle limit of the ball joint.  Not sure if you had any of these problems or not or if that contributed to your failure? 

Our failure was on the right hand side, where the joint in the outer tie rod is under the arm and the angles are less extreme. So I doubt that contributed.  Your pix and mention of these angles could explain some of the harsh bumps and weird popping noises we're getting on bumps, though.  It looks like I really do need to pull the springs out and run the suspension up and down through the full range, and do the full range through the steering to see exactly what's going on and what real issues still remain.

 

2 hours ago, Scott Knecht said:

Also just curious did you contact FatMan fabrications about this problem? Or wherever you got the kit? 

This morning about the time I posted on this thread, I sent an email to Fat Man Fabrications to give them a heads up.  I'll report back if I get a response.

 

This kit was already installed on the car when the current owner bought it. I'm fairly certain this is the Fat Man kit because there was a big folder full of literature and installation instructions and other documentation with the car, and there's 3 pages of installation instructions for the rack and pinion with Fat Man Fabrications and their address and phone number at the top of the first page.

 

 

Slightly OT, where did you get those brake caliper brackets?  Those look nice. I've got some (poorly) hand made ones and a botched  caliper installation.  I'm really interested in your brake setup, what calipers and rotors you're using and stuff like that.  I'm going to have to redo all the brakes, and I'm at the "Make or buy" decision on the front stuff.  Maybe that should be another thread, or maybe you can just shoot some pix and put up an album.

 

[Sniper]

9 minutes ago, Racer-X- said:

I'm going to have to redo all the brakes, and I'm at the "Make or buy" decision on the front stuff. 

 

If you are thinking of doing it yourself this thread may interest you.

 

 

[Scott Knecht]

Yeah I’d be interested in hearing what Fat Man’s response is to the broken adjuster.  
As far as the steering arms, I just rotated the spindles stop to stop and compared that to the distance the Cavalier rack moved lock to lock.  I came up with 1-3/8” shorter arms and it seemed to work.  I simply made the arms from 1”x1” mild steel bar stock bent to the same angle as the factory arms.  Got a 7 degree reamer from eBay on the cheap for my ball joint holes and of course careful measurements for the mount holes.   Being mild steel I welded a bit of extra material around the holes and left them cool slowly.  Dressed them up with a flap wheel.  I couldn’t bend them in my 20ton press without heat so I’m pretty sure they’ll hold up. 
As for the backing plates they came from Scarebird Classics in New Mexico if I remember correctly.  Remove the stock drums from the hubs and turn them slightly smaller to fit in the rotor.   Rotors are from Ford Probe, calipers from El Dorado and pads from S10.  Was pretty simple really.  Sorry these are the latest pictures.  I’ve been slacking. Lol

[Scott Knecht]

Racer X if you go back in this post you’ll see where Sniper was able to post my little bump steer video.