1934 Plymouth PE 6-volt Starter Question

[Mac McFarland]

OK....did as you recommended....held the distributor wire (coil to top of distributor) close to a bolt on head.  Momentarily touched the red wire (which I had disconnected from the base of the distributor) to the engine block (actually, touched the side of a spark plug as they are clean (new)).  Saw the small sparks there indicating voltage, but saw nothing on the distributor wire held close to the engine block.  So, I ASSUME the coil is bad. (Or the wire!--but doubt that).  So, if I have to purchase a new one, the only ones I could find have two terminal posts (1 pos and 1 neg).  How to wire that one?????

 

You can see the image I took of an ebay item above.

 

[Sniper]

Either way works and it's a lot easier to take the wire off at the coil rather than the points.

[Mac McFarland]

1 minute ago, Sniper said:

Either way works and it's a lot easier to take the wire off at the coil rather than the points.

Yup...but, actually, in MY case, it was easier to remove it from the points (shorter screw!!!!) ?

 

But alas, not spark from the high-tension wire.

[keithb7]

Your original coil has the wire from your ignition switch, entering the coil at the end. Hidden in behind the firewall.
The other small wire going to the points is on the engine side of the coil. 
 

 A new 6V coil on Rock auto (Or anywhere else) will have the rear hidden wire moved up to the front of the coil beside all the other wires. You can easily wire up a newer modern coil. An original type with the rear mounted wires ia about $250 US. A new one, what, about $20?

 

You can see my modern coil wired up here. Harder to see the smaller black wire headed to my points in this pic. Yellow wire goes to my ignition switch. 
 

 

 

 

[Mac McFarland]

Yes, I had already removed the coil and ignition, as well as taking off the back cover of the coil and disconnecting the ignition wire.  I guess I can save $200+ as my intention has never been to make this a show car, but a runabout.  Gonna order a replacement 6volt coil and modify the wire coming off the ignition switch and run it through the firewall to connect.

 

When THIS is all done, I'll be back if I don't get spark at the plugs.  

 

Thanks for all the advice so far.

 

Mac

[Mac McFarland]

Well, am in need of assistance again (still waiting on coil, but master cylinder kit did arrive).  Unfortunately, no instructions (of course).  In the image below, I received items A through G, but not H (but I have that washer from my cylinder).  When I dismantled my cylinder, I had to use a vice and hammer to remove everything inside.  Unfortunately, when it (the piston) came out, so did everything else, landing on the floor, and I do not know the order for reinstallation.  I know it is A, B, H.  Then I am not sure the order of C, D and E.  I believer F is next followed immediately by G.  In addition, E, is a rubber seal with a small brass-looking washer on one side.  Not sure which way that goes.  Does the spring go inside that?

 

I know, I know...not much of a mechanic...but trying to learn.  Googled, but to no avail.  Can anyone provide a bit of guidance?

 

 

[keithb7]

I found this image helpful. A little later year cylinder shown. However similar assembly. Your item D is in the very far left of my image below. 

 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by keithb7

[Mac McFarland]

Excellent....makes sense now.

 

So, "G", the rounded side, 'inserts into' the spring (smaller diameter end), and the flat side of "G" has the rubber gasket (which would go into the cylinder first of all parts)?  I had thought (probably erroneously) that "G" would have gone into the cylinder rounded side first, but it appears, because of where the rubber gasket ("D") is, the flat side goes in first.

 

Thanks

 

[Mac McFarland]

Well, I was wrong on which way the spring went...in order to "G" to fit in the direction shown in your picture, the large end of the spring goes in first.  Got it all back together, now for the hard part....bleeding the brakes when all lines are empty.  I don't want to purchase the suction kit to draw the fluid into the lines, so will enlist help to do it for me....I have a couple of friends who work together will, even in COVID, so I have asked them to do it.  And they will, once I get it running.

 

PS--the rubber boot sent to me...'impossible' to put on either end (the shaft and the cylinder), so used the old one---still in good shape and is different in design from the replacement.

 

 

[Mac McFarland]

@keithb7....I see the ignition wire is going to the negative post, correct?  

 

Also, where did you get the wire for this, and what gauge did you use?  My switch has the wire going to the rear of the original coil encompassed by a metal sleeve (a little over a foot long, but not long enough to go through the firewall), so I would have to splice into the end of my wire as I cannot remove it from the switch itself (integral part)...or did you replace the switch entirely (I prefer not to, but could).

 

[keithb7]

I used the original key switch and wire. I spliced-on an extra length of old cloth wire I had kicking around. Solder and heat shrink the splice . There already was a hole in the firewall. I added a rubber grommet to the hole to protect the wire from rubbing through on the sheet metal. I fed my wire to negative side of new 6V coil. Works perfectly. 
 

The old metal tube with the wire inside it, was an early anti theft device. The hot wire to the coil was encased in a shield of armor. Might take a thief 30 seconds longer to hot-wire it and drive away. I cut the metal wire shield and tossed it away. Just leaving the wire. I’m not too worried about anyone stealing my ‘38. Most don’t know what a stick shifter is. Lol. Besides it rarely leaves my line of sight. 
 

I’m not sure what size that old cloth wire is. If I were buying a piece of wire today, I’d probably go with 12 ga. No smaller. 10ga would be nice too. The 6V system sure loves fat wires. 
 

A few pics of my hack work. I’m not trying to build a show winning car. I’m trying to drive and reliably enjoy an old car that looks like it just came off the farm. So far that’s working for me!

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by keithb7

[Mac McFarland]

Perfect....i'll be doing the same...

 

THX

[Mac McFarland]

@keithb7 (again)...I am assuming your '38 is also positive ground?  I just want to make sure before I wire that coil in....you have ignition wire going to negative post...so if yours is also positive ground, then that makes my assumption that I should also wire it the same.

 

 

[Mac McFarland]

Also not seeing your wire from you positive terminal going to points...is this a photo before you wired that?

[keithb7]

My car is positive ground. My engine is currently removed, so the distributor and wire is out with it. 

 

The way I came to wire mine up like this is: I figured positive ground. When the points close it lets the 6V in the outer (primary) coil  go to ground. So the positive side of coil, (primary winding) goes to ground. Ground is positive. Makes sense to me.  

Edited January 7, 2021 by keithb7

[Merle Coggins]

That is correct. On a Pos. ground car the Neg. post is the "hot" that comes from your ign. switch. The Pos. post is the ground that goes to the distributor, which provide the ground when the points are closed. 

[Mac McFarland]

Thanks, Merle, for the confirmation...that's my in-house project for today...connect that coil and test for sparks (wire/plugs) and see if I can finally get this thing re-running.

 

 

[Mac McFarland]

Well...ALMOST there....coil works (get spark on coil wire).  Believe getting spark at plugs (quite sure, but no one to observe).  Why I believe spark at plugs is car will fire, a little, but won't actually run.  Poured some fuel directly into the carb, and appears to fire with that fuel (briefly).  So, my next step was to check the fuel filter/bowl and pump.  Cannot remove the glass bowl---afraid to strike it with anything to loosen it.  Hate to take pump off engine block, but may have to.  (any issue / procedure to putting the fuel pump back on?).  Any suggestions on how to loosen (I removed the bracket holding it on) the bowl?

[keithb7]

2 hours ago, Mac McFarland said:

Well...ALMOST there....coil works (get spark on coil wire).  Believe getting spark at plugs (quite sure, but no one to observe).  Why I believe spark at plugs is car will fire, a little, but won't actually run.  Poured some fuel directly into the carb, and appears to fire with that fuel (briefly).  So, my next step was to check the fuel filter/bowl and pump.  Cannot remove the glass bowl---afraid to strike it with anything to loosen it.  Hate to take pump off engine block, but may have to.  (any issue / procedure to putting the fuel pump back on?).  Any suggestions on how to loosen (I removed the bracket holding it on) the bowl?

 

You are getting closer! Good news.

 

It does sound like you are experiencing a fuel delivery issue.  Remove the fuel line off of the float bowl.  Lean over into the starting motor in the engine bay.  Leave ignition key off. Tranny in neutral Park brake on. Push the foot starter linkage, with your hand, from within the engine bay, leaning over the left fender. So the foot linkage engages the starter into the flywheel ring gear. Push the linkage further to engage the starter switch and get the engine cranking over. Watch the fuel line. Is there fuel spurting out of the fuel line you just disconnected from the carb bowl? It could take a while of cranking if there is no fuel left in the lines.  If no fuel pumps out, the fuel pump will likely need to come off for inspection. Could be the rubber diaphragm in it is spent? Valves stuck? Not hard to remove and re-install the fuel pump. If bowl is stuck on this leads me to believe the pump is old, crusty and probably needs work. A careful tap with a rubber mallet may release the glass fuel bowl.

 

If you are getting fuel spurting out while cranking over the engine... Stop cranking the engine.  Go re-attach fuel line to the carb bowl. Crank engine over some more. Fill up the fuel bowl. Remove the air cleaner. Look down the carb venturi. Cycle the throttle linkage all the way open and closed a few times. You should be able to see a raw jet stream of fuel squirting into the venturi from the accelerator carb pump. If not, open up the carb bowl and inspect next. Main inlet needle & seat working properly?

 

Edited January 8, 2021 by keithb7

[keithb7]

Forgot to mention, you can also lean into the engine bay and activate the starter linkage, to watch for spark at a plug. Car in neutral. Park brake on. Ignition key on.  Pull a spark plug or two. Plug wire re-attached. Lay plug on the cylijnder head so it can ground. Activate foot starter linkage by hand. Look over and watch for sparks at spark plug. Keep away from moving parts. Engine may start!...Then shock you when you go to open the door handle, to shut off the key. Lol. Don't ask me how I know this.

Edited January 8, 2021 by keithb7

[Mac McFarland]

Well, I DID get the bowl off (crud caked on the bottom inside--cleaned that up).  Blew air through the lower line (the one running from the pump direct to tank) to make sure it was clear.  Filled the bowl up.  Connected all back together.  Poured fuel in carb.  Car would run until that fuel was gone (10-12 seconds).  So, definitely fuel supply issue. 

Disconnected the throttle linkage at carb, tried repeatedly to cycle...saw absolutely nothing coming into the carb.  

Then disconnected the line to the carb (from pump) and attempted to start to see if fuel came out...it did not. (Again, I used fuel poured into the carb to at least get it running).

So, I guess, the next task will be to disconnect the pump.  Way to bench test this thing?  

 

And thanks for all the advice so far on the electrical...I imagine the old coil WAS bad.  This $20 one works fine.

 

I won't ask! (About getting the shock!).  ?

 

 

[keithb7]

If you can find a rebuild kit, its not hard to rebuild your pump. Otherwise source a replacement pump.

 

I have not personally bench tested a pump. I did hook up a vacuum & pressure gauge and measured pump pressure when the fuel pump was mounted, cranking engine over.

 

I did successfully rebuild my my first ever fuel pump last winter.  Worked well. Wasn't hard.  It made 0 psi when I took it off. It made 3.5-4 PSI after I rebuilt it. 

[Mac McFarland]

A replacement costs ~ 150....been looking for a rebuild kit, but have not found yet (on internet).  I'm not familiar with the use of a vacuum & pressure gauge, but a friend of mine is, maybe I'll ask him to set it up and test.

 

Do YOU have any suggestions on where to find a rebuild kit for such an old vehicle?

[Mac McFarland]

Hmmmm...think I may have found one online:

 

https://www.then-now-auto.com/product/checker-fuel-pump-kit-1932-1933-1934-t/

 

When looking for a pump at Hagen's Auto Parts, it mentioned an FP411 and FP419 (I don't know what model mine is).  That link above mentions an FPA-16.  Wonder if all is the same.

[TodFitch]

2 hours ago, Mac McFarland said:

Hmmmm...think I may have found one online:

 

https://www.then-now-auto.com/product/checker-fuel-pump-kit-1932-1933-1934-t/

 

When looking for a pump at Hagen's Auto Parts, it mentioned an FP411 and FP419 (I don't know what model mine is).  That link above mentions an FPA-16.  Wonder if all is the same.

Then N Now (aka Antique Auto Parts Cellar) is a good company and the rebuild kits come with spring clips that hold the actuating pivot pin in position so it won't walk out (which is a common failure on the current production replacement pumps).

 

There should be some numbers stamped on the existing fuel pump, be sure you send those to to Then N Now so they can supply the correct kit (the pump you have may not be original).