King Pins on my P-18

[woodie49]

I am replacing my king pins on my '49 Woodie.  I knew it was coming because I wanted to get it aligned a couple years ago and the guy told me I had to do the king pins for him to do an accurate job. last year I started to get a good amount of vibration at about 70 MPH, so, now that our Governor has again shuttered Ca., I figure i have plenty of time on my hands.

 

This does not look extremely hard, but, the shop that was going to do the pressing and reaming for me is out because the guy who does this kind of work is "down for the count" according to his son, and thinks he'll be out for several weeks.  I have located a machinist here on the central coast who is willing to do the job, but is not really a car guy.  I need to disassemble the king pins from the knuckles so he can "see what we are dealing with".

 

My first problem is removing the lock pins so i can get the king pins out. It looks like they are threaded, but i think this is only because they are peened over.  One side has the little wedge missing, the other is essentially flush with the hole.  I assume i should be able to pound these out.  I also assume that the fully round side is the side that comes out first, so I should pound on the wedged side to push the pin out.  Judging from the amount of dirt, grease and crud, I am not sure the front end of this car has even been apart.  The pins do not appear to want to budge.  But I wanted to make sure i was not doing anything drastically wrong before really getting serious.

 

Any suggestions on removing the lock pins is appreciated.

 

Once i get the pins out, I think my machinist will press out the bushings and install the new ones and ream them.  I should be able to take it from there.

[kencombs]

Drive them out from the threaded end.  I like to leave the nut on until it starts to move, then take it off and complete the removal.  I'm not sure what you are referring to as a 'wedge' though.  There is a flat on one side that engages the kingpin to keep it from turning.  Maybe that is what you see.

[Andydodge]

I could be wrong but I don't recall mopar kingpins having a lock pin thats threaded or has a nut on one side......I think GM and/or Frod have this feature but not Mopar ...................they or at least the Mopar ones I've played with have a flat on one side tapering to just the round end.......these lock pins are inserted into the spindle from their  "flat" end of which the "flat" edge rests hard against the "flat" on the king pin itself thereby locking the kingpin to the spindle and the lock pin is hammered hard into this spindle..................to remove the lock pin you hit the lock pin from the "tapered" side which pushes the pin out, then either screwing a self tapping screw into the welch plug on the top/bottom of the king pin and levering the crew and therefore the welch plug out and then tapping the kin pin out from either top or bottom..........I'd strongly recommend cleaning the whole king pin/stub axle/spindle  area as much as possible as it makes this job much easier to see whats actually there............dunno if this helps...............lol..........also I suggest using a 3/8th diameter 6" long coach bolt as a drift as its diameter is the same as the lock pin and the coach bolt head is large enough that you don't wack your knuckles..........lol........ ..andyd.      

[Dodgeb4ya]

I think the trucks use the wedge lock pin that's threaded at the end.

A nut is used to pull it tight against the king pin.

[woodie49]

Andy - you are right about the Plymouth set up.  This just took a lot more pounding that i though it should and I wanted to make sure i wasn't missing something. On mine, the knuckle was staked over the flat end of the lock pin. All apart now.  The pins look to be in good condition. I'll need to borrow a guage to check tthe ID on the bushings, but I suspect they will be worn. 

Thanks to all for the helpful suggestions.

[James_Douglas]

You should go read the threads on my 1949 Desoto Convertible steering issues.

 

I assume that since the thing is apart that you will buy a kit and replace the pin and the bushings-bearings.

 

The three take away's from my experience are:

 

1. The service book says to "remove all endplay" with the shims on the thrust bearing. Later books warn that one needs 0.008 or it can bind. Mine is at 0.0085.

 

2. For 1949 even the standard Desoto's, as opposed to the long wheelbase cars, used a torrington needle bearing in the upper of the spindle. Not a bushing. I can attest to the great difference this makes given the negative castor settings of 1949. I would not use anything other than the upper bearing as it steering better with it.

 

3. Use some anti-seize compound on the pin so that the next poor guy who needs to get the pin out will not kill himself.

[woodie49]

The knuckles are apart. I already have a kit that includes the new pins, bushings, bearings, shims, cops and lock pins.  I have found a  machine shop somewhat in my area that does  this kind of work and says  they would hone the bushings once they put them in. they have adjustable reamers, but they feel the clearance would be excessive. I think I read somewhere on this forum that these should not be honed.  The shops say that honing will get them within a half a thousandth, which I assume is probably better than achieved with a reamer.  But I really don't want to have to do this again - ever. Is there a reason that honing can't be done on these? This guy sounds like his does this kind of thing quite a bit, but not for older cars like mine.

 

I have a more local guy who i think will attempt this, but is a little uncomfortable because it is new territory for him (which makes me uncomfortable as well). He will either use an adjustable reamer or buy one that would be of the right size and fit on his machine. 

 

Any further thoughts?

 

 

[Andydodge]

I've always understood that the oillight(?) bushings that are pressed into the stub axle should be reamed, not honed...........I think it has to do with the way the two operations work..........reaming as far as I know actually "cuts" the bushing metal to size, whereas honing is more of a grinding action which supposedly clogs up the bushings.........but I'm no machinist but have always had these bushings reamed to size...........my 2 Oz cents worth.......Andyd

[DJ194950]

I also remember from about 30+ years ago my boss- Certified welder/engineer/ machinist told me on the oil-light bushings use No cutting oils as they were Reamed- not honed . Otherwise all the pores with the formed containing a oil would clog up the pores and make the bushing no longer usable. Sticky Not lubricated any more.No built in lube still usable at that point.

 

My early mechanic teachings.

 

DJ

[MarkAubuchon]

Thats the advice I was given

[James_Douglas]

The bushing I have in my NOS MOPAR kits ARE NOT OILITE!

 

I will say it again, get a kit with the upper that has the tornington bearing and get the special reamer that the upper is set up for THE BEARING and the lower is for the bushing. I have on in my tool box. It is a FIXED reamer specifically for king pins.  They show up on ebay. Find one.

 

I honed them the first time around at my machinist with a new sunnen hone while it was being bathed in oil in his fancy sunnen machine. The final fit was as good as a close tolerance bearing. The problem is that it was TOO GOOD and grease could not get around it and it galled on the upper outer side when in use. Made for hard steering and wander.

 

The FACTORY MASTER PARTS BOOK shows a bearing top - bushing bottom for 1949. Use them.

 

James

[Dodgeb4ya]

At least on D24 Dodge the steering knuckle part numbers are different for torrington and bushings.

The knuckle is machined different for each style.

Shown in the D24 parts book is the different diameter bearings and bushings offered on the D24 Dodge std sedans and 2 doors.

Anyway As for the Plymouth's I can find no torrington bearings listed for Plymouth after 1941.

Bushings avaulable only for the Plymouth's including the woody wagons.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Dodgeb4ya

[kencombs]

I know I haven't seen everything, but never have I seen a kingpin bushing that was Oilite.  All I've installed were a steel-backed bronze(or plastic, some yellowish alloy).  Oilite bushings are normally much thicker walled than kingpin bushings.

[Andydodge]

I was probably wrong calling the king pin bushes "oil light" but I'll stand my ground re reaming the bushes rather than honing...........and to each his own..........I've also not ever seen Plymouth or Dodge standard wheelbase car based kingpins with Torrington bearings.......my understanding is that the Torrington bearing was only used on DeSoto/Chrysler vehicles and also the Dodge/Plymouth 7 Passenger vehicles as I understand their chassis were DeSoto/Chrysler based.........happy to be shown wrong and not to old to learn..............lol...............andyd 

[woodie49]

I think I found a place reasonably close (a little over an hour away) that should be able to press in the bushings and ream them for me.  I'll stick with that procedure - thanks to all for the input. They'll press in bushings in and ream the knuckles and leave it to me to assemble the knuckles to the uprights.

 

I test fitted the pins to the support, since this piece does not get a new bushing.  I wonder how tight this should be.  For my pins, it looks like I will need to drive or press these in.  I am trying to get some measurements today before I go to the machine shop, but it looks like the OD of the new pins are slightly bigger than that of the old pins.  The old pins are slightly worn at the ends where they go into the bushings - on the passenger side particularly - so i can't reuse them.  I have had the king pin set for a long, long time and really don't know where i got them.  Should this be a very tight fit? Once I assemble these, it will be hard to disassemble if I need to adjust the shims.  I probably can use the old pins for this, then drive the new ones through.

[Dodgeb4ya]

The new king pins should accurately and snugly fit into the knuckle support bore.

You should not have to pound/ beat them in.

Re-install your old pins in the support to compare the tightness of fit.

The tapered lock pin is what locks the KP tight in the knuckle support.

[woodie49]

My new pins are .7960 OD and old pins about .7940 OD. I was measuring around the center of the pins because i thought the old pins would not have wear in that area.  the old pins taper to about .7910 toward the ends where they would contact the bushings in the steering knuckle.

 

The manual says the upper/lower bushings on the knuckle get reamed to .7960 to .7975, so it seems like the new pins are correct. 

 

Makes me wonder if the support is either different because this is a Woodie (usually all the parts from the firewall forward are not different from other Plymouth passenger cars)  or if it is substituted from another car.

 

Part no. for pass side is 1313951 12232;

Part No for Dvr side is    1313951 12130

 

Can these be from a different car and therefore have a difference ID for the bore?

 

 

[woodie49]

Here is a little bit more information.  I can not find either the support with the part numbers i listed or the knuckles themselves, which are part number 859079 12235 and 859079 12259 in my Plymouth parts book.  if i can figure out what they came from, I can get a different king pin kit that should fit. 

 

If anyone can find these numbers in their parts books, please let me know.