OT - Weekend Finds

[Johnny S]

Made a run across Colorado and into Kansas/Missouri this past week and ran across these two rigs in decent shape in eastern Colorado. The '56 Nash is really pretty sweet. The Dodge is in good condition as well. Anybody know much about a '56 Nash Ambassador Super Sedan?

[62rebelP23]

weren't Nashes reputed to be powerhouse engines? they weren't economy cars in those days, they had a specific clientele. i know the unibody could suffer from rust but they had good mechanicals. there's a big following for them too.

[greg g]

Some folks have anointed the 55/56 Nash at the first Muscle car. They would apparently easily out run thier contemporary Crovettes. Both in 0 to 60 and top speed.

[Don Coatney]

Follow this link for some interesting trivia.

http://www.gmcanada.com/inm/gmcanada/english/about/OverviewHist/hist_auto_highlights.html

[Plymouthy Adams]

The 1955 Chrysler 300 is the grand-daddy of the muscle car..the first production vehicle to break the 300 HP barrier...

[62rebelP23]

hudson hornet with twin-h power. frequent NASCAR winner.

[Norm's Coupe]

Some folks have anointed the 55/56 Nash at the first Muscle car. They would apparently easily out run thier contemporary Crovettes. Both in 0 to 60 and top speed.

BEEP-BEEP

[Very slowly]

Beep beep beep beep

His horn went beep beep beep

While riding in my Cadillac

What to my surprise

A little Nash Rambler was following me

About one third my size

The guy musta wanted to pass me up

As he kept on tooting his horn

I'll show him that a Cadillac is not a car to scorn

Beep beep beep beep

His horn went beep beep beep

[slowly]

I pushed my foot down to the floor

To give the guy the shake

But the little Nash Rambler stayed right behind

He still had on his brake

He musta thought his car had more guts

As he kept on tooting his horn (beep beep)

I'll show him that a Cadillac is not a car to scorn

Beep beep beep beep

His horn went beep beep beep

[Normal speed]

My car went into passing gear

And we took off with gust (whoosh)

Soon we were going ninety

Musta left him in the dust

When I peeked in the mirror of my car

I couldn't believe my eyes

The little Nash Rambler was right behind

You'd think that guy could fly

Beep beep beep beep

His horn went beep beep beep

[Quickly]

Now we were doing a hundred and ten

This certainly was a race

For a Rambler to pass a Caddy

Would be a big disgrace

The guy musta wanted to pass me up

As he kept on tooting his horn (beep beep)

I'll show him that a Cadillac is not a car to scorn

Beep beep beep beep

His horn went beep beep beep

[Very quickly]

Now we're going a hundred twenty

As fast as I can go

The Rambler pulled along side of me

As if we were going slow

The fella rolled down his window

And yelled for me to hear

"Hey buddy how do I get this car outa second gear?"

[knuckleharley]

Some folks have anointed the 55/56 Nash at the first Muscle car. They would apparently easily out run thier contemporary Crovettes. Both in 0 to 60 and top speed.

The 1958 Rambler Ambassador 4 door hardtop with the 327 cubic inch engine,1 4brl carb,and pushbutton automatic was the fastest stock car tested by Hot Rod Magazine in the quarter mile in 1958. It even turned in a quicker time than the dual quad 4-speed Corvette.

For those of you who don't know,the Nash became the Rambler. I have a 58 Rambler stationwagon,and it has a lot of Nash parts on it.

[knuckleharley]

The 1955 Chrysler 300 is the grand-daddy of the muscle car..the first production vehicle to break the 300 HP barrier...

I think that title goes to a earlier hemi. I'm thinking maybe the Red Ram in the 500 series Dodges? My memory sucks as to which one,but the criteria was 1 horsepower per cubic inch,not 300 horsepower.

BTW,the 56 DeSoto Adventurer ran faster than the Chrysler 300 in the flying mile at the Daytona Speed Trials in 1956. Since the little brother couldn't be allowed to outdo the big brother,the DeSoto developed mysterious mechanical problems that kept it from making a second run. It was a 341 cubic inch engine that was rated at I THINK 345 HP. I tried to buy one of these factory dual quad cast iron intakes for my 330 DeSoto engine on ebay the other day,but lost all interest when it went over 600 bucks. I think it ended up selling for around 750. No carbs,no linkage,just the bare intake.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the hemi of early times was just a nice smooth moderate powered V8..it was not until 1958 that the HEMI come into its own with the 392 in all out power..and the sweetest thing about these is how pretty they dress up. The early poly block with their semi-hemispherical head walked the dogs on the early hunks of iron called hemi's. And as horsepower to weight production cars run..meet the Dodge Dart 413 with 420 horse from the factory...squaring the engine in terms of 1 horse to 1 cube did not make a muscle car...today that is done is iddy biddy little 4 bangers and in most cases it is exceeded many horses over...often at the expense of the engine valve train/pistons should the rubber band break..horse power is sacraficed in many engine for realibility and cost of maintenance...my daily driver just got 29.4 MPG at 75 MPH with AC on...and it is almost square with 214 HP with 217 CI...the twin cam and dual induction along with a non interference fit configuation would yeilds no damage even when if it breaks at shifts from first to second at 6200 (computer shift point) while there may be no substitute for cubic engines, I contend there is no substitue for electronic controlled engines....

[knuckleharley]

Tim Adams wrote: >>the hemi of early times was just a nice smooth moderate powered V8..<<

By todays performance standards maybe,but not in a era where flathead Ford and Hudsons ruled.

>>it was not until 1958 that the HEMI come into its own with the 392 <<

Ever try to explain this to Don Gartlits? Or countless other drag racers and hot rodders from the early 50? In 1956 there were two hot rods within a block of my house running Chrysler hemi's. One had 6 carbs,and the other one had 8 carbs.

>> The early poly block with their semi-hemispherical head walked the dogs on the early hunks of iron called hemi's.<<

Only in drag racing,and only because Chrysler only put the hemi's in the heavier cars that mostly had 2-speed automatics. Even then you didn't have much unless you had a Plyouth Fury with the optional cam and dual quads,AND if you are talking about stock classes,not gas or fuel drag classes. Show me ONE drag car from the 50's that ran a poly engine.

>>And as horsepower to weight production cars run..meet the Dodge Dart 413 with 420 horse from the factory...<<

And that has what to do with the early 50's?

>>squaring the engine in terms of 1 horse to 1 cube did not make a muscle car...<<

Yeah,it did if you are talking about "original muscle car". 1 hp per cubic inch in a stock engine was VERY big news back in the early 50's. Truth to tell,most of the hot rods running around on the streets back then didn't make that much power.

>>today that is done is iddy biddy little 4 bangers and in most cases it is exceeded many horses over...<<

And what does that have to do with what was happening in the early 50's?

>>while there may be no substitute for cubic engines, I contend there is no substitue for electronic controlled engines...<<

This I agree with,especially when these engines have dual overhead cams,teflon rings,etc,etc,etc. I just bought a new Nissan Altima. 4 cylinder engine that makes a STRONG 175 HP,and gets between 35 and 40 MPG. It doesn't even require the first tunup until it hits 105,000 miles. A lot of this is due to the computer controlling timing and fuel distribution. It is always in a perfect state of tune,where the best you could do with the old points and carb systems was to have it in a perfect state of tune at idel or wide open throttle. But again,what does this have to do with the early 50's? The early hemi was competing against flathead Ford V-8's,and smaller OHV V-8's from Olds,Cadillac,Studebaker,etc,etc,etc.

[bob westphal]

The '56 Ambassador a big boat that ran a OHV straight six, lay down seats, and audacious colors. It was the '57 Rebel that was the fastest production car beating out cars like the 'Vette. They were 4 dr. sedans and almost all were smoke gray in color. It was also capable of 25 mpg. As for the which car that actually was the first muscle car - how about Deusenburg, Buick, or Studebaker? Duesenburg came out with their super charged engine in the early 30s. Studebaker had the straight eight President in the late 30s. Buick came out with the Century in '39. The Century used a small Special body with a huge Roadmaster engine and was so named because it had a top speed of the century mark. The list goes on and on. Fast production cars weren't anything new to the scene before the GTO came out. I think the term 'muscle car' was coined by some hot shot sales staff trying to sell early Mustangs, which in my personal opinion are junk. There have been fast cars since the beginning of the era of the car.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you are quoting too much from drag strip and hot rodding and I was referring to stock running out of the box cars of the era...in other words..what was factory built for the showroom. To discuss racing of any sort, drag, circuit, endurance runs...all these take a different tune/built engine...this would lead to an abundance of who what and where in time. As for the reference to the 413/420 enigne..this was stock..this was over squared..in drag racing the 392 is unlimited but then for the street..it was replaced by the 413 wedge...more bang, less weight in the casting...this also gave us the first wedge hemi..the rest is legend...

1 for 1 was a big deal in those days for sure...cutting edge stuff coming about..the race was on...the big deal was doing it from the factory and backing it with a warranty...remember the cars were sold for daily driving...performance and realibility were measured to go hand in hand. anything done after the fact for racing is completely another story altogether...

And how does this all tie to the 50's...the ever increasing need for power and especially today, power and economy...and it did not start in the 50's, from day 1 it has endured the test of time and has advanced to the some of the longest running, less internal wear, high output economy minded vehicles on the road today..and you think today is top...wait about 10 years and look back...

and there was no competition with a flat head Ford off the showroom floor..at best in stock form it was a slow moving self propelled boat anchor..I think the engine of the day to contend with would be the OHV Buick's...and I have a old Motor Trend mag here dated 1952 and it had an article on the Pontiac straight 8..and how it was creamed by the Plymouth 218...

PS: the poly block was available in 230, 260 and 290 horse at 318 cubes and this were also factory numbers...again..I am not talking race or drag but merely factory production cars..as for drag racing these...don't know-don't care..but the cops sure loved the 290 HP version..

[knuckleharley]

bob westphal wrote: >> It was the '57 Rebel that was the fastest production car beating out cars like the 'Vette.<<

Bob,you are right and I was wrong. I stand corrected.

>>As for the which car that actually was the first muscle car - how about Deusenburg, Buick, or Studebaker? <<

I'll go along with the Buick because it was a actual production car that was specially built for the purpose of going fast.

>>Duesenburg came out with their super charged engine in the early 30s. <<

Duesenbergs were hardly production cars. They were insanely expensive and insanely fast luxury cars.

To be truthful,I consider them and their Auburn and Cord brothers to be more along the lines of works of art than cars. IMO,the 3 most beautiful cars ever built anywhere in the world at any time. If you have never been to the A-C-D Museum and have the chance,you owe it to yourself to go. No matter how beautiful those cars look on film,you won't appreciate their beauty until you see them in person.

>>?Studebaker had the straight eight President in the late 30s. <<

Another limited production expensive luxury car.

If we had to pick the first,I would vote for the Buick. Anybody in any city in the country could walk inside a Buick dealership on any day of the week and drive away in one.

[knuckleharley]

Then again,just to stir the pot a little,the Dodge 4's of the 20's were called "Fast Fours"! (G)

True confession time. I've been wanting to own a original Fast 4 for years now. I want to keep it as original as possible,and just drive it around to have fun terrorizing all the Model T's and A's that are around here.

[Plymouthy Adams]

now if we are talking ultimate "dream machine" of long ago..then yes, give me a Dusenburg SJ 1932 I blieve and for the daily driver...I'll take an Abner Doble Doctor's Coupe...boy would that thing be the cats meow today...

[greg g]

Kinda got my heart set on a Bugatti Atlantic Coupe.

[greg g]

Kinda got my heart set on a Bugatti Atlantic Coupe.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Chrylser redid that coupe couple years back in a concept car...very very nicely done and IMHO would have sold big time..it also featured a straight 8 engine and rhinestones on the instrumentation...

You got good taste Greg..the Bugatti is another fine hand built car...also glad to see it has been revieved..

[Normspeed]

The '56 Ambassador a big boat that ran a OHV straight six, lay down seats, and audacious colors.

\

Bob, IMHO, the lay down Rambler was the greatest automotive innovation of our time. Heck, didn't matter how fast it was as long as it got you and your date to the submarine races.

[captden29]

yeah, norm. i had a 61 rambler with those lay down seats. went to drive ins with dates. hardly ever saw a movie. in addition to that feature, it was a good little car, 3 speed on column, 6 banger and dependable. dennis

[PatS....]

my '58 rambler went to a few unseen drive in movies too

sixcylinder pushbutton auto...no radio or other options. the lay down seats were standard. should have had curtains!!!

[1just4don]

One of my very first jobs was working for the railroad communications division. That was the telephone and telegraph wires that ran alongside of a railroad track. They of course were all privatly owned by the railroads. Nothing like working on top of a TALL pole(standing on pole spikes)(over 25') and you laid the bare wire on your shoulder as you worked up there. If somebody rang thru while it was so shouldered you got the identical buzz to holding onto a crank telephone wires.(you got used to it after a while). As temp summer help while still in high school,,,I got the dubious honors of digging ALOT of post holes,,,with that banjo and spoon. Never saw a post hole digger for the years I worked there!! This banjo and spoon has 8' handles that you could barely get your big hands around!! Worked great for hole digging down 6-7 feet. Hardest hole I EVER dug in my life was in Northern Illinois and was thru what felt like solid rock and had to be 6 and 1/2' deep cause it was a tall pole. Took nearly half a day to dig it. AND we set all those poles up by hand also,,,their was no such thing as a fancy truck like you see these days!!

ALL the linemen section foremans drove Rambler station wagons,,,all of them,,they were long enough in the back to hold their digging tools,,,and everything else they needed. They were used like pickup trucks. It was amazing to me to see cars that were used and abused like they were with as many miles on them and never been touched,,, Some of those miles were driven in ditches and rough untamed ground along those rails!!(Maintance MUST have been top priority back then). One guy said I only have 49,thousand on mine,,,for the third time. The NEXT guy I worked for had 360,000 on his and it still hadnt been touched. Any regular car of the day was pretty well wore out at 80-100K. Not those Rambler wagons,,,they ran forever!! With NO signs of giving up!!