strange starter problem

[Ward Duffield]

Hi Group

I have finally progressed on my P-15 reassembly project to the point where it is time to start the engine.

It was fully rebuilt and balanced before I bought the car, but has not run in three years while getting the body back into shape.

When I started the car, the Bendix did not kick out of the ring gear. The car always started fine before the layup, no issues, ever.

I drove it several times prior to disassembly.

As far as I know, this is the starter that was installed on the car at the factory. The car had been stored over 50 years and was bone stock when found.

I replaced the battery, which was getting pretty old, tried a new solenoid in case the old one somehow was staying closed after releasing the pushbutton, and even had the starter rebuilt, including a new Bendix drive. It now behaves exactly the same; it fires right up but I have to shut it down because the Bendix does not disengage.

I have never encountered this situation before, and I'm really puzzled. Anyone ever see this? Suggestions?

I plan on counting the teeth on the flywheel next. can anyone confirm the correct number?

Thank you for any advice or ideas.

Ward Duffield

Pine Plains, NY

[soth122003]

Check the starter button on the dash and make sure it is not sticking closed. Do this buy using a remote start switch at the neg batt terminal and the starter relay small post with the key on. If the problem is still there, then use a jump pack with key on and spin the starter directly by-passing the starter relay. ( I usually go pos to pos ground and neg to starter lug) If you still have the problem it is the starter.

Had my starter button stick before, as well as a starter relay be bad right out of the box.

Edited November 26, 2017 by soth122003

[Ward Duffield]

OK, I will try a remote switch next, Thank you .

Ward

[Plymouthy Adams]

I think I would check the interference fit of the starter Bendix to the flywheel...

[The Oil Soup]

I had mine do that after I switched from 6 to 12 volt. It was a bad bendix drive that worked fine for a while and then jammed in the engaged position. Replaced it and now it's good.

[Ward Duffield]

I'm not sure if I made it clear that this engine was driven many times after rebuilding, with this starter, and all was  normal.

[Plymouthy Adams]

50 minutes ago, Ward Duffield said:

I'm not sure if I made it clear that this engine was driven many times after rebuilding, with this starter, and all was  normal.

 

 

14 hours ago, Ward Duffield said:

Hi Group

I have finally progressed on my P-15 reassembly project to the point where it is time to start the engine.

It was fully rebuilt and balanced before I bought the car, but has not run in three years while getting the body back into shape.

When I started the car, the Bendix did not kick out of the ring gear. The car always started fine before the layup, no issues, ever.

I drove it several times prior to disassembly.

As far as I know, this is the starter that was installed on the car at the factory. The car had been stored over 50 years and was bone stock when found.

I replaced the battery, which was getting pretty old, tried a new solenoid in case the old one somehow was staying closed after releasing the pushbutton, and even had the starter rebuilt, including a new Bendix drive. It now behaves exactly the same; it fires right up but I have to shut it down because the Bendix does not disengage.

I have never encountered this situation before, and I'm really puzzled. Anyone ever see this? Suggestions?

I plan on counting the teeth on the flywheel next. can anyone confirm the correct number?

Thank you for any advice or ideas.

Ward Duffield

Pine Plains, NY

even you have questioned the very mechanics of the build yourself by saying that you are going to next count the teeth on a VEHICLE THAT WORKED WELL BEFORE.   A tooth count change would be the least likely scenario but you seem to think it can happen to a stationary car.  The three year lay up can lead to rust build up on the shaft of the starter, accumulation of debris/corrosion on the teeth of the both the Bendix and flywheel, possible paint overspray if any general or  prepping was done to the vehicle in the rest period or non environmental/climate control applied, you can have a host of other dust, rust and moisture issues during the storage period.  People were trying to point some of these out per your request for help.....we here feel your pain but when you don't know what is wrong, set out to prove what is right...you really don't need to shoot the messenger.  I feel a good close inspection and clean up is in order is my view, good luck

Edited November 27, 2017 by Plymouthy Adams

[MackTheFinger]

Is the starter still energized after you release the button? Maybe the solenoid is wired incorrectly.

[Ward Duffield]

I was just thinking that perhaps the rebuilders incorrectly assumed there was a certain number of teeth on the ring gear and installed the appropriate Bendix for that number, in error.

The starter shaft is just like new, the starter spins freely. After the first failed attempt after rebuilding, I removed it and cleaned off the large amount of sticky red grease they had applied, and relubed with dri-slide the Bendix travels up and down the shaft easily.

I recall once seeing a chart with ring and pinion tooth numbers listed, but it was years ago.

I did not count the teeth on the old drive, which had been OK; the new drive has nine teeth. This is the original, MZ-4133 starter, MoPar 1113119.

I put a test light on the solenoid output and it goes out when the button is released.

I removed the starter tonight and the ring gear looks good, no dirt or rust evident.. The engine was detailed before installation and covered, indoors during the body work.

but wirebrushing the ring gear is my next step.

[Plymouthy Adams]

ensure clean surface with no excess of paint acting as a shim on a particular section of the mounting surface.    I believe your ring and drive have a 146/9 set up

Edited November 28, 2017 by Plymouthy Adams

[soth122003]

Did you bench check the starter to see if it sticks after you re-lubed it? A lot of Mechs now-a-days think the more grease the better the lube. Just think back to the old Brylcream commercial, "A little dab will do you". For the bench check a 12v jump pack will work fine as long as you don't leave it running for more than 15 to 30 seconds. Just turn the switch on spool it up, turn it off and wait for it to wind down before testing again. If it works on the bench, check the flywheel, if the flywheel is good, check the electrical.

How did the bypass switch check work?  Or the jump pack to the starter?

 

Joe

[maok]

When inspecting the ring gear turn the engine over to inspect all of the gear, there maybe some that are damaged.

On 11/27/2017 at 7:51 AM, Ward Duffield said:

When I started the car, the Bendix did not kick out of the ring gear

How do you know that the pinion gear did not release back?

[nonstop]

So you have replaced the solenoid, battery, and rebuilt the starter.  So the only 2 things I can offer - isolate the solenoid from the switch and work your way down to the starter. Jump the solenoid from the battery.   Work your way down to the starter. Also check your battery cables and grounds. I seem to remember on one of the forums a recent post about starter issues. It was explained that resistance and corrosion in the cables can cause the starter to stick due to contacts fusing from excessive heat. Is it legit or BS? I don’t know, but what do you have to lose? Might be worth a check.