bob westphal Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 My P-15 steering box is worn out so I'm considering going to a rack & pinion. I recently saw a '50 Plymouth wagon that has R & P while using stock suspension. Does any one on the forum know of any one who has done this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kansascoronetguy Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 I would like to know also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 (edited) yep...common upgrade...the TRW rack is the unit of choice, grab from Caviler and other sister cars.....same rack used by Chrysler but Mopar used it forward of the axle centerline....not behind like the stock chassis and retrofit rack...I have one such setup, one TRW kit laying aside and 3 vehicles with Dakota rack and pinion.... Edited August 14, 2017 by Plymouthy Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybose Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 .... or you can just get the OEM steering box rebuilt with all new parts. It ain't cheap, and shipping is a pain due to the attached steering shaft, but it can be done. Midwest Remanufacturing did mine, and did an excellent job. Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 I have had a rack & pinion in my Oz 1940 Dodge since 1973, first with a 1950's Morris Minor rack then from the late 70's an Austin 1800 rack, both resulted in an increased turning circle due to the shorter "throw" that a rack has, I overcame this by having the mopar steering arms shortened, however a BETTER way to overcome this problem is by mounting the steering arms forward, ie the arms are mounted on 2 large bolts and are effectively moved forward using another bolt thru a boss welded onto the lower part of the disc brake caliper adaptor, see the 1st pic.......... Now if I was doing the rack installation again I'd also use the Cavalier rack as shown via these pics, see the 2nd & 3rd pics .........yes this is a V8 installation but the rack install is the same whether an engine swap is done or not........You'll note that the Cavalier swap shows the stock style mopar steering arms in use in this swap, I'd suggest that using the "forward" mounted steering arms in this case would be an added improvement......... ........anyway trust this gives you some ideas, I haven't included any pics of my Austin 1800 installation as its very old tech, and also RHD which won't help you guys much....lol......(tho' the first pic is a RHD car but is applicable to LHD so its included)...........Andy Douglas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 41 Dodge D19 bz cp, big block, TF, 8 3/4, relocated shocks, discs, list goes on and on....Cavalier rack show, my rendition of dual exhaust.. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 I see you went with the see through drive shaft and the low vis u joints. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 19 minutes ago, greg g said: I see you went with the see through drive shaft and the low vis u joints. yeah.....at this time they were visionary...only pic I had that showed the rack in position for those that inquired... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted August 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 Thanks for the reply every body. My car has the Fat Man dropped up rights and stock brake with a power booster. This looks like it is good conversion and not that complicated. Did you use a donor steering column Andy? I would like to retain my original steering column and wheel. Pick & Pull sells R&Ps for $34. Thanks again, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonaldSmith Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 I kept my steering wheel and column when I added a power steering gearbox to my 47 DeSoto. Same considerations as for adding a rack and pinion. Support the steering column at the firewall, while keeping the shifting apparatus; find a way to maintain contact with the horn wire that runs from the steering wheel; shorten the steering column and add a spline and universal joints to run to the steering box or rack. At the top of the page, select "Downloads", then "Instructions, Manuals & Templates", then download "Power Steering", Chapters 1, 2 and 3, Steering Column Jacket, Horn Contact, and Steering Shaft Modifications. It was my trial-and-error way, maybe something you can adapt to your situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Bob, my car has the blinker taper & concertina can/collapsible piece from an Oz late 60's Valiant with a piece of 2" alloy tube for the outer column modified to fit into the Valiant upper bearing/blinker unit then a steering shaft with the Valiant upper splined piece adapted, a sealed bearing at the bottom of the outer column where the firewall bracket is......the shaft goes straight to an Oz GM uni joint the fits onto the 9" narrowed Austin 1800 rack & pinion ..........so its not quite stock....lol..........but I have adapted late model steering boxes into early cars, however, being a 1934 DR Dodge and 1938 Plymouth they were both floor change so the column change stuff wasn't applicable......however what I did was mount the late steering box out of a 1968 GM Holden cut the column and adapted a flexible coupling as per the 1968 Holden to the mopar shaft which went thru a sealed lower bearing pressed into the stock mopar outer column tube.........a column change would not complicate the adaption so long as the column change bracketry was above the lower bearing and a suitable strengthening mount was fitted to the lower column tube and lower firewall to ensure the column & gear change mechanism worked as original..........what Don has done and described is basically what I did to both the 1934 & 38 Cars.......... have attached a pic of the column in my car, the exhaust clamps whilst looking a bit agricultural are quite o/k as the actual mount is 2" box tube & 1/4 plate, I keep reminding myself to make a more stylish clamping arrangement but after 40yrs .........lol.......andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted August 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2017 I went to the wrecking yard and checked out several Cavaliers. They all didn't have the same rack. A '91 did have the same rack that is shown in Andy's picture. Does anyone know what years Cavalier changed racks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 17, 2017 Report Share Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) Don.........the Cavalier rack is shown in both of my pics that show the blue/green sump and Plymouthy's pic showing the gold/brown sump.....the one in Plymouthys pic is a power rack, the one shown in my 2 pics is not clear whether its a power rack or not.............that rack shown in the pic with the yellow sump is on MY car, its an Austin 1800 rack narrowed 9" and is NOT what you want nor need......lol........as far as I am aware the GM Cavaliers and Pontiac J2000(?) used the same rack in all their versions but that's purely from what I have seen mentioned on both here and the Hamb........the Cavalier rack was also used in GM's UK Vauxhalls and the OZ GM Holden Camira..........the centre steer style rack has also been used in a few other cars from what I understand and its an excellent way to minimise bump steer and get a good direct steering system, the only drawback as I mentioned earlier is the smaller turning circle that can sometimes be a product of the reduced throw of the rack...........anyway what you want is the centre steer Cavalier rack and the attached steering tie rods also.........think it is the late 80's early 90's version............andyd. Edited August 17, 2017 by Andydodge mor info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suntennis Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) , If the steering arms were moved forward, would this result in a ackerman geometry problem? Edited August 18, 2017 by suntennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted August 18, 2017 Report Share Posted August 18, 2017 Suntennis........I haven't had any direct experience in the moving forward scenario as I overcame the problem by having the arms shortened and have not had any problems in the 40yrs since it was done, the shorter arms give the same result as the moved forward arms..............however If I was doing this all again I'd be doing the steering arms forward as I mentioned in my post on Tuesday as I think this is an ingenious way of overcoming the main drawback in using a rack & pinion and I think any affect to the Ackerman geometry would be minimal...........but would be interested in see any examples either way..................andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted August 23, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 The only racks I have found are power racks. I don't really want to mess installing a power system. Are manual racks available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconvan Posted August 23, 2017 Report Share Posted August 23, 2017 I've done two Cavalier rack swaps; one on my 48 and one on my 49. I liked the feel of the 49 best; I used a power rack and just used a fluid reservoir to lubricate it but did not use a power steering pump. With the stock 49 steering wheel it had great road feel and was easy to turn. My 48 has power steering and a 13" wheel. It's a little too sensitive for my taste; considering ditching the pump and going to a bigger wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted August 24, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2017 Did he resistance of the fluid increase the force used to turn the wheels without a pump? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted October 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 I'm in the process of installing the R&P. I notice that the Cavalier tie rods are shorter than the originals. It looks like I will need to add about 2" to reach the steering arms. One way would be to fab new adjuster bolts or bend the steering arms in. What did you guys do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted October 6, 2017 Report Share Posted October 6, 2017 Do NOT bend the steering arms.......have some lengthened tie rods made up, 1" hex steel bar drilled and tapped to suit the Mopar tie rod ends and the Cavalier tie rods, ideally use right/left hand threaded tie rods and have the threaded holes in the hex bar right/left threaded so that when its all bolted together a 1" spanner can easily adjust the toe in/toe out........finding a suitable left hand tap is usually the main issue as well as a pair of left hand threaded nuts as the hex bar should have lock nuts on the exposed threads............andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andydodge Posted October 10, 2017 Report Share Posted October 10, 2017 Bob.....just sent a long PM.........I woffle a bit.....lol..........andyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob westphal Posted October 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 I see that falconvan used a power rack with a reservoir without a pump. I'm wondering if the power rack even needs fluid. Does anyone have anny input about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dale Posted October 21, 2017 Report Share Posted October 21, 2017 So I take it a rack and pinion with out power steers much easier than the old original box. right ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlcad55 Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 On 8/15/2017 at 2:01 AM, Plymouthy Adams said: 41 Dodge D19 bz cp, big block, TF, 8 3/4, relocated shocks, discs, list goes on and on....Cavalier rack show, my rendition of dual exhaust.. Hi Which tie rod did you used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 1 Report Share Posted January 1 I wish I could comment further on the steering and the manner it was installed, I bought this project and for sure it has been the quintessential evidence of why never to buy someone else's work in progress and I have not nor never will consider a started or finished car by others. While I have reworked every aspect of the build, firewall, steering column, cooling system, exhaust, brakes, driveshaft phasing engine and rear axle, body welded/finish instead of rust holes packed with bondo....this segment of the car as purchased seems to be the only professional done segment and it was my understanding the only thing the builder farmed out and appears to be the Caviler tie rods. This car was a total misrepresentation by the seller even when direct questions were asked with the only concern to rework questionable area NOT HAVING to discover the shoddy workmanship, sad day. The car is sitting covered, all work done save topcoat paint, for the eventual day when my total disgust will allow me to find the love to finish the car. I was ready to crush it with the discovery of the last big surprise. But dang, you got to love the body style of the 41 dodge bz cpe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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