My son has started our Scarebird conversation

[medium_jon]

Well, my wife is moving into the new kitchen as I write this. Actually, she has been moving into it since Sunday. Consequently, my son and I have managed to get back to the Plymouth's disc brake conversion. The project had stalled with lots of work on the kitchen. Still not done there, but it is functional and so I made the jump back under the car. 

When I last left the story I had managed to mount the new Wilwood dual tandem master cylinder on a Scarebird WWD mount which was mounted on the old master cylinder. I had also mounted the proportioning valve. 

Next up was the pushrod. This turned out to be easier than I've seen, but it took some effort gathering parts. I went to a local fastener shop (Valley Fasteners of Lynchburg , VA) where they sold me a threaded rod to match the threads on the "bolt with the hole" that the original master cylinder's push rod connected to...

The local fastener store didn't have any connector nuts so I had to order that online. 

I got that "bolt with the hole" pusher rod connected to the threaded rod and then started measuring. I eventually determined that the proper length for me was 9.5 inches, but I initially cut it 9.75" 

After that, I got my angle grinder and commenced to making the threaded rod into a push rod. Here is the new long push rod from the piece of threaded rod, the connector nut and the two nuts I'm using for jam nuts (dark one is original and shown in the first photo). Also shown are the rubber boot for the master cylinder and the supplied 5" (metric threaded) push rod from Wilwood. 

And a close up of the threaded rod push rod and the Wilwood push rod:

I actually smoothed it out a little bit more. But all it has to do is push a piston and there is no way it is falling out based on how the master cylinders are made. 

Here is a photo of a test fitting:

The kind of purple marks on the bracket was a Sharpie™ that I was using to mark the threaded rod. From that original mark, I just need 1/2" because of the way the Wilwood master cylinder is made. 

Here was the first test fitting with the master cylinder: 

That approximately 1/4" gap is how I knew I made my push rod too long. Back to the garage and I threaded the jam nut and connector nut further in, got the reciprocating saw, and made quick work of the extra 1/4". Took both nuts off to chase the threads and then back under the car for final installation.

My son then tested out the brake pedal and we called it a night. 

 

Edited July 27, 2017 by medium_jon
moved photo

[medium_jon]

Son Jacob and his lovely momma are volunteering at a marching band fundraiser today. Jacob plays snare in the drum line. This will be his 4th year in the high school marching band (he started in 7th grade) and we have become a 'band family'. I took time off from work yesterday afternoon to do volunteer on the same project. 

So, today, I'm trying to finish up the Scarebird disc conversion with the Wilwood tandem master cylinders with remote reservoirs. 

The master cylinder looks like this attached to my bracket behind the original master cylinder.

Jacob picked the locations for the tandem cylinders. I'm pleased with his choice under the hood on the far edge of the passenger side of the car

Nothing in that location, till today. 

He marked one hole each with a Sharpie™ last night and this morning I used the center punch and then drilled a hole for a #10-24 bolt. If you use this position you need bolts about 1.75" long. I had some 2" in the bolt bin and used them. Under the dash with some fender washers it looks like this:

I'm not pleased with that yet, but it will get us on the road until something better comes to mind. There aren't even any lock washers right now and the matting on the inside of the firewall means that when I tighten up one reservoir, the other gets looser because of the compression. 

To span the gap between the master cylinder and the reservoirs I used this hose:

The Wilwood master cylinder kit contains 2 pieces of 30" long hose. Combined they might have made it to a low space on the firewall straight in front of the master cylinder, but not to the other side of the car where Jacob picked. I got this at O'Rilely's. The store manager suggested this transmission oil cooler hose as it was better than the kit hose and would be better with the temperature (hose runs about 4" from the exhaust piple). 

The yellow tape was temporary so I would not confuse the front cylinder and reservoir from the rear.

 

The F and R are just some stickers I printed out. The reservoirs have lines for min and max volume that you can't see here.

The photos don't show it, but I used clips like this and some self-tapping hex head sheet metal screws to hold the hose in place. 

Those clips are used to hold MC electrical cable -- I just finished the wife's new kitchen wiring and I had these left over. Bonus!

Two more new brake lines to flare are next...

Edited July 30, 2017 by medium_jon
moved one caption. Added another caption

[Frank Elder]

Adel clamps are safer and wont put a hole in your hose from chaffing 

[medium_jon]

1 hour ago, Frank Elder said:

 

Adel clamps are safer and wont put a hole in your hose from chaffing

 

Good idea @Frank Elder  I used that style on the nickel copper brake lines. I didn't think about any that size for the resovoir lines. 

[medium_jon]

14 minutes ago, medium_jon said:

Good idea @Frank Elder  I used that style on the nickel copper brake lines. I didn't think about any that size for the resovoir lines. 

@Frank Elder: got them ordered. They will be here by the time I get back from my work trip to Missouri 

[48ply1stcar]

I have had this exact project in mind for years.  By the time I get to it I hope I can remember how to find this thread. By the way I didn't see your fingers in any of the pictures.  Could you share a picture of him under the car sweating in the heat, just to make me feel better about only having one daughter and a grandson too young to send under the car.

Edited August 5, 2017 by 48ply1stcar
spelling

[medium_jon]

@48ply1stcar: my real hobby is photography, so I try to keep errant fingers out of photos. I usually have at least one, if not more, light sources available when I take the photos. 

Once the car is roadworthy again, we have to adjust the proportioning valve, so I'll get a photo of him under the car turning the knob. 

I actually got the brakes bled on Saturday while my son was volunteering at the band fundraiser. My 16-year-old daughter worked the brake pedal for me.   

[Frank Elder]

I am thinking this is my next purchase....or some variant of same.

[medium_jon]

27 minutes ago, Frank Elder said:

some variant of same

@Frank Elder : I used a variant of that. http://a.co/3SlLrXw

I was pretty pleased with the bleeding process, but I still haven't put the car on the road yet. I'm out of town till Thursday night and I want to check all the connections before I seat the pads and adjust the proportioning valve. If there are leaks, I assume I will need to rebleed at least part of the system. 

I have to keep telling my son and myself that this project is to improve safety. 

[dale]

Where did you get those brake lines ?

[medium_jon]

12 hours ago, dale said:

Where did you get those brake lines ?

@dale: The brake lines are just standard 3/16" nickel copper but I bought them as a set with fitting and some armor. So the springy stuff is armor that I used where the lines needed to bend a sharply or where the lines might rub on the frame, etc. I buy lots on Amazon.com  Here is the package:  3/16 Brake Line Kit - Tube / Armor / Fittings  http://a.co/0O54lLI
 

I had plenty of brake line, but I didn't replace what is behind the rear axle yet. I intend to, but I have to locate the rubber hose and I'm thinking my rear springs are rather flat so I might do it all at once. 

I didn't need any of the larger fittings.

There isn't enough spring armor for the whole length, but I ended up using all the armor I had as I was worried about the front passenger line as it runs through the area that the fan could throw something (no idea what, so it is probably an unfounded worry). 

Near the master cylinder and proportioning valve, I used a tube bender. My tube bender only goes down to 1/4" and the 3/16" brake line isn't a good fit. But, with the armor on, it works pretty well in the 5/16" section of my tube bender if you go real slow and frequently release pressure -- else you stretch the armor.  

[medium_jon]

An update on this project:

On Saturday, while my son and wife were volunteering at Jacob's marching band's fundraiser, I got the system finished. But the inside of the wheel was rubbing slightly -- to the point they won't turn a full revolution. I contacted Scarebird (those guys must never sleep because they always answer me promptly) and they said they have seen this with my particular wheels two or three times. They suggested either 1/8" wheel spacers or using an angle grinder on the inside of the wheels (see photos below) or both. I've ordered wheel spacers from two different sources so I have an option for best fit (reviews had conflicting results). 

This is what my wheels look like. I'm out of the state so I've not looked at what brand they are or what model they are. I'll post that eventually. 

Really hard to tell from the photo on the inside, but the bends inside for the opening are slightly rubbing the calipers in three places: at the far edges of the of the part surrounding the pins that the calipers float on (what is the name of that part) and then across the outer edge of the caliper. 

[HotRodTractor]

1 hour ago, medium_jon said:

. They suggested either 1/8" wheel spacers or using an angle grinder on the inside of the wheels (see photos below) or both.

Surely they meant using an angle grinder to knock down the high spots on the casting of the caliper and not the inside of the wheels.....

[medium_jon]

17 minutes ago, HotRodTractor said:

Surely they meant using an angle grinder to knock down the high spots on the casting of the caliper and not the inside of the wheels.....

Quote

or take an angle grinder to the area of the RIM that hits... or both shim and wheel mod.

Nope, they said RIM. (their caps, not mine) And I think I'd feel better about grinding that part of the rim as it seems to be an artifact of the manufacturing process.

I will admit, grinding off the calipers would be WAY easier. 

I'll update this posting when I have the spacers. I've ordered two sets of 1/8" spacers to try. They are not the universal ones, but specific for a 5 bolt install. I'm out of state at the moment and I don't know how long the spacers will take to arrive. 

[HotRodTractor]

Ah - I slightly misunderstood what was hitting - now after studying the pictures more and your recent comment, its a little more understandable.... but personally I still wouldn't grind on the rim.

Also - after looking at the pics it looks like the rim is hitting the small area that holds the calipers to the caliper slide pins - probably not the best area to remove meat. On other projects like this I've had interference with the rims and the outside of the caliper.... those aren't hateful to fix by grinding on the caliper body a little bit. This.... isn't quite as easy.

[medium_jon]

@HotRodTractor : Slide pin. That is the name I was looking for. Yeah, I didn't want to grind next to the slide pins -- as you said: "not much meat there". 

[MackTheFinger]

5 hours ago, medium_jon said:

An update on this project:

On Saturday, while my son and wife were volunteering at Jacob's marching band's fundraiser, I got the system finished. But the inside of the wheel was rubbing slightly -- to the point they won't turn a full revolution. I contacted Scarebird (those guys must never sleep because they always answer me promptly) and they said they have seen this with my particular wheels two or three times. They suggested either 1/8" wheel spacers or using an angle grinder on the inside of the wheels (see photos below) or both. I've ordered wheel spacers from two different sources so I have an option for best fit (reviews had conflicting results). 

This is what my wheels look like. I'm out of the state so I've not looked at what brand they are or what model they are. I'll post that eventually. 

Really hard to tell from the photo on the inside, but the bends inside for the opening are slightly rubbing the calipers in three places: at the far edges of the of the part surrounding the pins that the calipers float on (what is the name of that part) and then across the outer edge of the caliper. 

If it's only a matter of grinding a little of that rib in the middle picture I wouldn't hesitate to have at it. 

Good luck and thanks for posting all this info. It will help many people who are thinking of doing the same conversion.

[medium_jon]

2 hours ago, MackTheFinger said:

If it's only a matter of grinding a little of that rib in the middle picture I wouldn't hesitate to have at it. 

Good luck and thanks for posting all this info. It will help many people who are thinking of doing the same conversion.

 

@MackTheFinger: Yeah, the grinding on that manufacturing artifact doesn't seem too crazy. And it is a valid reason to use a POWER TOOL -- my favorite! But I'm going to try the spacers first.

And in a former career I used to write instructional materials, so I'm trying to document this so it can be followed easy enough. I'm pretty pleased with how the dual tandem master cylinder install part worked out. 

 

[MackTheFinger]

30 minutes ago, medium_jon said:

the dual tandem master cylinder install

Along with your son helping out that was my favorite part of your brake install. It will surely help those of us contemplating a similar upgrade. I'm sure the spacers will work out fine. I hope your trip is going well! 

[medium_jon]

I'm out of town, but both sets of spacers arrived at my home in Virginia, son Jacob Q opened both. He said that the center opening on this set ordered from eBay is too small. Thus I'll be returning these. 

Baer Wheel Spacers 2000042 .125" (1/8") 5 lug 5x4.50, and 4.75 BC http://r.ebay.com/8in50I

Again, the opening for the hub was too small to use those spacers.

But this set is just right:

trailsport4x4 PARENT Wheel Spacer Pair for Ford Mustang - 5x4.5 Hub: http://a.co/fNQnEq9

My son's photos of them installed are next...

Alas, like the support from Scarebird said: "either 1/8" wheel spacers or using an angle grinder on the inside of the wheels or both."

We are in the Both category. On one side my son said the wheel rotates 4/5th the way around and then can't move any further. I figure the wheel might be slightly bent or he tightened the lug nut too tight on that side. On the other side, it will rotate all the way around, but it is rubbing. 

I told him he could try mounting the wheel from the worst side turned 144° (2/5th) if he wanted to try it, but he didn't. He's been in Marching Band camp all day.

So we are real close. But not there yet. 

I fly out of Columbia, MO at 6 AM in the morning (Thursday, 3 August 2017). I have to work on Friday, and then my oldest daughter is making her first trip home after graduating from college and getting a real job in May. So I might not have too much time to work on the Plymouth this weekend. 

 

[medium_jon]

Woot woot. We have a working system.

It is not technically done as I want to replace the brake lines to the rear wheels, but I need to source the rubber hose from the brake light switch to the tee on the axle. I also think I need to bleed the front lines again. It was too easy the first time and the pedal is soft. But we have driven the car around the neighborhood and then up the road a couple miles to a road I never see cars on to test the proportioning valve. 

Solved the wheel rubbing problem by using the 1/8" aluminum spacers and rotating wheels. My front passenger wheel was slightly bent. My son wanted to swap it with the spare tire (still has the stickers on it) because he thought that would be less work. Unfortunately, that rim was even more bent. I've done that before -- made the bent rim the spare. I'll have to find someone in town to straighten them. I've had it done in North Carolina on for modern cars with great results before. 

I'll update this thread again after we replace the rear lines and bleed a second (or third) time. 

Stickers on my spare tire -- Sears and Roebuck 

Edited August 4, 2017 by medium_jon

[Niel Hoback]

Allstates made by Armstrong.

[keithb7]

Enjoying the thread. 

I'll offer info on the Mity-Vac. I have one and use it for one person brake bleeding. It has has a little container that attaches. You   hook up a vacuum line at the  brake bleeder nipple. Make sure the reservoir is full of brake fluid. Go down to the wheel. Hand pump unit with one hand and create a vacuum. Crack bleeder with other hand and draw out fluid. Closing bleeder again. Pump mity-vac again and repeat. Keep going as needed. Be sure to get up and top up the reservoir as you draw out fluid at wheel. 

Clear lines work great for flushing out old brown-ish fluid with new. You can visually see the fluid turn clear as the new fluid gets pulled through by the Mity-Vac.

I think I have the 8,000 model. With a gauge on it, it also works great for testing vacuum pots. Such as distributor vacuum advance.

http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_hvpk.asp

Speaking of young people under cars, sweating in the heat. I find myself in this situation often. I kind of wish I was 17 again, sometimes. Yet then other times not. As at 17 I'd be broke. Have scant tools and tend to break a lot of parts. Trying to take things apart impatiently and ramming them back together. Lol. We probably all  had that in common early in our years. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by keithb7

[YukonJack]

4 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Enjoying the thread. 

I'll offer info on the Mity-Vac. I have one and use it for one person brake bleeding. It has has a little container that attaches. You   hook up a vacuum line at the  brake bleeder nipple. Make sure the reservoir is full of brake fluid. Go down to the wheel. Hand pump unit with one hand and create a vacuum. Crack bleeder with other hand and draw out fluid. Closing bleeder again. Pump mity-vac again and repeat. Keep going as needed. Be sure to get up and top up the reservoir as you draw out fluid at wheel. 

Clear lines work great for flushing out old brown-ish fluid with new. You can visually see the fluid turn clear as the new fluid gets pulled through by the Mity-Vac.

I think I have the 8,000 model. With a gauge on it, it also works great for testing vacuum pots. Such as distributor vacuum advance.

http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_hvpk.asp

Speaking of young people under cars, sweating in the heat. I find myself in this situation often. I kind of wish I was 17 again, sometimes. Yet then other times not. As at 17 I'd be broke. Have scant tools and tend to break a lot of parts. Trying to take things apart impatiently and ramming them back together. Lol. We probably all  had that in common early in our years. 

I have used the Mity-Vac myself, but not the same way as you are. I open the bleeder, pump the Mity-Vac until I get a clear stream without bubbles, close the bleeder and move on to the next wheel.

[medium_jon]

I was under the car adjusting the parking brake, because like a fool, I forgot to release it and drove until I could smell it, and I realized that I never took a photo of the master cylinder and the proportioning valve with all the brake lines and 2lb and 10lb valves. Here it is...

Testing the brakes for lock up, and the right rear wants to lock before the front discs, so I will definitely be bleeding the brakes again. Good stopping and not much pedal effort required.