ATF "broken down"

[knuckleharley]

This is related to the posts I have been making about freeing up a stuck 55 DeSoto 291 that sat for many years,and then had each cylinder filled with powdered clay that was packed.

I gave the auto trans from that 55 engine to a friend that is building a fenderless chopped 27 T tudor with a 330 DeSoto hemi. Stopped by his place last night,and he was showing me the strangest oil either of us had ever seen,and it was still clinging to the valve body of that 55 DeSoto auto trans. It really looked like clumps of black oil and dirt with a faint red tint from the ATF,but the instant you touched it with your fingers,the oil would smooth out,and you coudln't even feel any grit when you rubbed your fingers together.

Neither of us could figure it out while discussing it,and it finally occurred to me last night after getting home. That car only had about 30k miles on it when the guy I bought it from bought it from an estate sale. The engine was stuck from sitting for so long,and he used a mixture of kerosene and ATF to unstick the engine. According to his mother,who handled the sale,he never did get it running because right after he got the engine spinning he was called up on active duty for the Iraq war. The spark plugs were still out of it when I bought it. I discovered the cylinders were packed with clay when I went to put the spark plugs back in it. None would even thread.

Which means that most likely this car hadn't been driven since some time in the 60's,and the ATF in the transmission had just broken down from sitting idle in the oil pan and not having been stirred up and "reblended" for so many years. I THINK if it were circulated by the trans pump through the trans and back down to the pan that it would be red again,but I still wouldn't trust it. The oils of today are so much better than the oils of the 50's that there is no comparison.

Can't tell anything about the engine oil. It has had kerosene and ATF in it,and will have Kroil oil and WD-40 in it by the time I drain the pan. I am going to use the Kroil to break it free,and then use WD-40 in the cylinder walls to turn it and lube everything up before draining the base pan and spinning the engine with the starter to build up oil pressure with the fresh oil I put in it before storing it away again.

 

Anybody else see this? Looks just like old burnt oil with trash in it,but there is no trash or smell.

 

 

 

[Don Coatney]

Interesting observation on the ATF. I do question the use of WD-40 as a lubricant. It was invented as a water displacement solvent for use on airplane wings to prevent ice buildup. It does contain some petroleum products but it would be low on my list for any lubricating properties.

https://wd40.com/files/pdf/msds-wd494716385.pdf

[knuckleharley]

  On 2/15/2017 at 8:40 PM, Don Coatney said:

Interesting observation on the ATF. I do question the use of WD-40 as a lubricant. It was invented as a water displacement solvent for use on airplane wings to prevent ice buildup. It does contain some petroleum products but it would be low on my list for any lubricating properties.

https://wd40.com/files/pdf/msds-wd494716385.pdf

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Don,the only reason I am using it is because I have a gallon sitting on the floor,and I would just be using it to "scrub" the cylinder walls and flush the rings.

Before I button this thing back up for storage I will be loading the cylinder walls and rings with either vasoline or chain and cable lube. Neither will evaporate,and will still be there years from now keeping it from sticking again if I don't get around to it. I am a big fan of the spray chain and cable lube that NAPA sells. Used to  use that to spray the cable and pulley's on my old F-500 wrecker that sat outside in the weather year around,and damned it it didn't take months for it to dry up enough to "disappear". It never did really disappear though,because none of that stuff ever got any rustier. It's thick and it foams..

[Flatie46]

That Areokroil is good stuff. I use it a lot at work. It works well by itself and or  with heat. I never thought of using chain lube like that, pretty smart.

[DJ194950]

Chain and cable lube that I have dealt with is very good sticky stuff that is almost impossible to get off- just what it was meant to do. The only possible downside maybe if you plan to someday try to start this motor without a rebuild. I very much expect the rings will be so full of that lube that they would never free up and seal again.

I believe you said that someday a rebuild would be done, if so no problemo!

DJ

[Eneto-55]

Not the same situation, but on a vehicle I bought (well) used, the englne lube was really black, so I drained it & put in some used ATF.  Ran it at an idle for 3 minutes. (With my hand on the ignltion the whole time, so that if I heard any strange noise, I could shut her down right away.)  Then I drained it & put in clean stuff.  It stayed like new (color & viscosity) for a long time.  

(Spelling & word choice note:  For some reason certain words get changed into some sort of link.  So I misspelled them, or used other words.  What causes that?  Is it a problem on my end, or does it do that for you all, too?)

Edited February 15, 2017 by Eneto-55
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[Flatie46]

  On 2/15/2017 at 11:59 PM, Eneto-55 said:

Not the same situation, but on a vehicle I bought (well) used, the englne lube was really black, so I drained it & put in some used ATF.  Ran it at an idle for 3 minutes. (With my hand on the ignltion the whole time, so that if I heard any strange noise, I could shut her down right away.)  Then I drained it & put in clean stuff.  It stayed like new (color & viscosity) for a long time.  

(Spelling & word choice note:  For some reason certain words get changed into some sort of link.  So I misspelled them, or used other words.  What causes that?  Is it a problem on my end, or does it do that for you all, too?)

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Are you posting from a smart phone? My android does that.

[knuckleharley]

  On 2/15/2017 at 10:49 PM, DJ194950 said:

Chain and cable lube that I have dealt with is very good sticky stuff that is almost impossible to get off- just what it was meant to do. The only possible downside maybe if you plan to someday try to start this motor without a rebuild. I very much expect the rings will be so full of that lube that they would never free up and seal again.

I believe you said that someday a rebuild would be done, if so no problemo!

DJ

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Now that the Kroil has cleaned the tops of the pistons,I see two pistons with cratering in the top. I now suspect the previous owner tried to start it while the kerosene he used to unstick it was still in the cylinders,and he had ignition problems. At any rate it looks like I will have to replace two pistons,so no big deal.

[Eneto-55]

  On 2/16/2017 at 1:16 AM, Flatie46 said:

Are you posting from a smart phone? My android does that.

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No, from a computer (win 7).  Other posts above ours show it too, but I don't know if everyone sees it.

[Los_Control]

The links are normal, is part of internet sales. I do not know how it all works. I believe the advertisement links are randomly added as you type, then the forum site we are using gets a monetary percentage of sorts.

Just saying that it is nothing on your end that is causing it.

[knuckleharley]

  On 2/16/2017 at 1:28 AM, Eneto-55 said:

No, from a computer (win 7).  Other posts above ours show it too, but I don't know if everyone sees it.

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Sounds like your browser uses the same horrible spell check program for it's email that my smart phone uses.

Try using another browser and see if the problem continues.

[dpollo]

ATF in an all original 56 Dodge Mayfair I owned was colorless.    A 57 was red.

[knuckleharley]

  On 2/16/2017 at 4:44 AM, dpollo said:

ATF in an all original 56 Dodge Mayfair I owned was colorless.    A 57 was red.

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This was mostly black,with a tiny trace of red until you rubbed it between your fingers. Then it turned red.

[DrDoctor]

   Many years ago, I had a Cadillac at the dealer, and there was another man there who was having an oil change. I happened to overhear him discussing it with the service writer, and he specified one quart of ATF to be added in lieu of a quart of motor oil in his brand new Cadillac. I later asked the service manager about purpose of doing that, and the ramifications pertaining to the warranty. He replied that the ATF has a much higher proportion detergent in it, and thus keeps the internals of the engine “sparkling” (I remember his word), and that the warranty wasn’t impacted. He also said it made “keeping track of when to change the oil much easier – the ATF burns out before the motor oil, so when you’re a quart low, that’s the ATF gone, so it’s time to change the oil” (his again, words). I still drive Cadillacs, and I did/still do that, and I’ve looked inside of the valve covers on a few of these cars, and the inside is “sparkling”, so much so that you could eat off the parts, if one were so inclined (I’m not so inclined). I typically run a car until it dies, then get out and beat it with a stick for another year or so, before I buy a new one. The poor soul who buys one of my used-used up Cadillacs isn’t getting much, because I’ve used it up. My point, the long way ‘round the barn, is that running an engine with some (not completely) ATF won’t hurt it one bit. Just a tho’t . . .  Thx.

[DrDoctor]

PS – as you can see, I get the same linkage formatting, too, and I’m using a rather large and powerful non-portable computer (a cross between a desk-top and a server), running Windows 10, and using Windows Edge (this site causes Internet Explorer to “load it’s diaper”, and lock up. It does the same on another “regular” desk-top computer, too. It’s due to incompatibility with the recently updated site, and Internet Explorer). Thx.

[knuckleharley]

  On 2/17/2017 at 1:16 AM, The Dr's In said:

   Many years ago, I had a Cadillac at the dealer, and there was another man there who was having an oil change. I happened to overhear him discussing it with the service writer, and he specified one quart of ATF to be added in lieu of a quart of motor oil in his brand new Cadillac. I later asked the service manager about purpose of doing that, and the ramifications pertaining to the warranty. He replied that the ATF has a much higher proportion detergent in it, and thus keeps the internals of the engine “sparkling” (I remember his word), and that the warranty wasn’t impacted. He also said it made “keeping track of when to change the oil much easier – the ATF burns out before the motor oil, so when you’re a quart low, that’s the ATF gone, so it’s time to change the oil” (his again, words). I still drive Cadillacs, and I did/still do that, and I’ve looked inside of the valve covers on a few of these cars, and the inside is “sparkling”, so much so that you could eat off the parts, if one were so inclined (I’m not so inclined). I typically run a car until it dies, then get out and beat it with a stick for another year or so, before I buy a new one. The poor soul who buys one of my used-used up Cadillacs isn’t getting much, because I’ve used it up. My point, the long way ‘round the barn, is that running an engine with some (not completely) ATF won’t hurt it one bit. Just a tho’t . . .  Thx.

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I knew people back in the 60's,when a lot of people were running Quaker State sludge,that would add a quart of ATF to get stuck lifters pumping up. This is kinda dangerous if thee is serious sludge in the engine because it will load up a oil filter in a heartbeat. That old parrafin-based motor old was some horrible crap.

[Los_Control]

When I was a kid working at the local gas station, pumping gas and oil, wash the windows and check the air in the tires etc ... After pouring a quart of oil in the customers car, we would put the card board container with oil spout in a drain barrel, to Finnish draining the last ounce out of it. Then in the evenings when it was slow, we could pull our cars in and work on them. I would use that mixed oil to clean gummed up engines, It was all new oil, but it was mixed weight and brands and also trans fluid mixed in as well.

I had a 1970 torino I got for next to nothing it ran so bad and lifters clattering. I changed a valve cover gasket and it was bad inside. I changed the oil and ran it a couple hundred miles, then change it again. That atf cleaned the old torino right out. One lifter was still a little noisy, but in time it may have quieted down also. I sold the car after a couple weeks and tripled my money on it.

[Flatie46]

  On 2/17/2017 at 2:23 AM, Los_Control said:

When I was a kid working at the local gas station, pumping gas and oil, wash the windows and check the air in the tires etc ... After pouring a quart of oil in the customers car, we would put the card board container with oil spout in a drain barrel, to Finnish draining the last ounce out of it. Then in the evenings when it was slow, we could pull our cars in and work on them. I would use that mixed oil to clean gummed up engines, It was all new oil, but it was mixed weight and brands and also trans fluid mixed in as well.

I had a 1970 torino I got for next to nothing it ran so bad and lifters clattering. I changed a valve cover gasket and it was bad inside. I changed the oil and ran it a couple hundred miles, then change it again. That atf cleaned the old torino right out. One lifter was still a little noisy, but in time it may have quieted down also. I sold the car after a couple weeks and tripled my money on it.

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I worked at the Chevy dealership when I was a teen detailing cars. A boy I worked with had an old 68 Chevy truck he had bought at a yard sale one day while we were on our lunch brake for $200 bucks. It loved oil, used it pretty bad. We always had to work late, well after the mechanics had left. He would find a pan where someone had changed oil and pour it in his truck. One day he grabbed a pan of gear oil  by mistake and poured it in. It was awful the smell of burnt gear oil following him down the road. If you just walked beside it while parked the smell was bad. He drove that truck for several years after that. It was one of those engines that just wouldn't give up.

[DrDoctor]

   Contemporary motor oils have a higher concentration of detergents, and have dramatically improved formulations, than their older counterparts. I’ll have to admit that my putting ATF in a relatively new Cadillac is most likely unnecessary. I’m probably over-reacting, but since it doesn’t hurt, I keep doing it, most likely due to habit. Also, it hasn’t affected the catalytic converter, nor has it affected the emissions system. We have to have a vehicle inspection, including emissions, each time we renew our tags (every two years), and the Cadillac always passes without problem. At the very worse, it’s probably just a case of harmless overkill. Thx.