new guy with some troubles

[Guest OldschoolJay]

hey guys, i just grabbed a 50 pilothouse in great shape.

i am having soem trouble getting it started. it has been used as adaily driver untill last weekend when it died. i have spark, and fuel. and i get a backfire into the carb on what seems to be a cycle. i have it at TDC, but i have my #1 at around 1 oclock. do i just have it 180 out? i was going to grab a compresion tool today and check to see if i have a stuck intake valve.

any insight would be great. is it common for these motors to jump a tooth or go out, in teh timiing department?

here's the truck, i also have a 55 pontiac.

[Reg Evans]

Well, if it just died suddenly after running fine and you haden't changed something maybe a valve spring broke. Yes....do a compression test.

[Guest OldschoolJay]

thanks, i am just on my way out to grab a compresion tool.

[Guest OldschoolJay]

checked the compression on all cyl.

it was not running as it won't start.

#1-45

#2-43

#3-50

#4-50

#5-40

#6-30

number 6 is a lot lower than the others, could that be a bad valve?

any help would be greatly appreciated.

Jay

[bach4660]

on your #6 crank the engine about 7 times and watch how you get to 30, if it hits 30 on the first crank and stays there you probably have a leaking valve, or blown head gasket. If it it gradually builds up to 30 then it is probably the piston rings. Or you can add some oil to #6 and if it increases then it is a valve not the piston rings.

[Guest OldschoolJay]

should it fire up in this state though?

brain isn't working right now, why would it be valves if it increases psi when oil is added?

thanks, just looking to understand it as well as fix it. rathe than just doing what someone tells me to do, ya know?

if i remember corectly, none of them were slow to build up psi. all jumped there quick.

[Merle Coggins]

Those compression #'s shouldn't make it not start. If anything, #6 may be a bit weak or missfire, but it should start. And I've always been tought that oil in the cylinders will help the rings seal for higher compression readings. If it stayed the same I'd suspect a valve.

It sounds like your timing chain may have jumped a tooth or two. Have you put a timing light to it yet? Having your #1 wire at the 1 o'clock position doesn't mean much as long as the timing is correct. Has anyone removed and reinstalled the distributor? If that's the case it may have been put in 180 off. If you suspect that, pull it and rotate it, or just move the plug wires 180 degrees.

Good luck

Merle

[Guest OldschoolJay]

doesn't look like the dist has been off for a long time. i tried running the wires 180 of that with #1 starting at around 7 oclock. and still nothing.

don't have a timing light and timing is not my strong point. i can't see any marks ont eh crank pulley to line up with the marker. is it comon for these to jump a tooth or two? is if i advance the timing or retard it, should it fire? can't seem to see how to pull the dist. out? there is a vacume adbvance on the top. do i just undo the vacume line from it and undo the bolt from the dist to the block?

how do oyu adjust the dist to change the timeing?

thanks again, been working on this all week and it is getting frustrating.

[Merle Coggins]

I don't know exactly how much clearance there is between the timing chain and the cover for it to jump over a tooth or two, but it may be possible if the chain is worn and stretched. I timing light would be the best way to know. Now might be the time to invest in one. They're not that expensive and will come in handy. You may need to hook it to a 12v power source to get it to work on your truck, but that's minor. As for the timing marks, start cleaning. They'll be there, but they won't be easy to find. In the attached pics you'll see what you're looking for.

If the timing is off by quite a bit that would confirm my suspicions. You may be able to adjust the dist to correct the timing and get it running, but the cam timing will be off as well and the engine won't perform properly.

Another possibllity would be a problem with the points, but you say that you have spark, so that would probably rule that out.

Good luck

Merle

[greg g]

Ok let's start at the beginning. Your compression readings are low, but except for #6, are fairly close. They should be in the 100 to 120 range for a healthy engine. If the truck was being driven regularly recently, I'd say your engine is due for a rebuild. That said, it should start and run even with low compression. On the cylinder head over #6 cylinder is a square pipe plug that is removeable. Removing this plug will give you access to the top of #6 piston. Take a piece of stiff wire about 8 inches long and insert it into the hole. With this you can tell if/when #6 is at TDC. When 5 is at TDC so is number one but not on its compression stroke, So now pull the plug from #1, and you will be able to feel when #1 is beginning its compression stroke. when you feel compression pushing your thumb up. simply rotate the engine till #6 is at TDC again as indicated by the wire, and now #1 will be at TDC on Compression. Then look at your front pulley for the timing marks. If you still cant see them, mark the place that the pointer is indicating with apiece of chalk of a bit of paint or something you can see. now put a mark about an inch on either side of this mark also for later use.

Once you are assured that #1 is lined up correctly, you can index your distributor, rotor and wires correctly. I followed this process when I installed my newly rebuilt engine as it still wouldn't start. In double checking I noticed I had the spark plug wires one tower off in the dist cap. (right church, wrong pew) Once it was reindexed it fired so quickly I was starled. Also cehck the wire inside the distributer athat goes from the terminal where the coil wire attaches to the points. This wire flexes alot with the movement of the advancemechanisms, and will sometimes shed some insulation and ground against the dist body. I found mine had frayed insullation. I repaired it by winding it with silk thread and covering that with rubber cement. (4 years and still working)

If you have fuel and fire and compression, you should be good to go...

Remember the 4 stroke cycle.... suck, squeeze,bang, blow.

Don't forget to remove that piece of wire, and put the plug back in before attempting to start.

[Don Coatney]

you can add some oil to #6 and if it increases then it is a valve not the piston rings.

Believe this information is backwards. Adding oil to a cylinder with leaking rings will increase the compression reading. Adding oil to a cylinder with a leaking valve will not increase the compression reading.

[Guest wrightkoss]

Adding oil to a cylinder was something that I just had to do with my boat engine to figure out what was wrong... valve or pistons and I agree with Don that adding oil will tell you if there is something wrong with your pistons. If the compression increases you have bad pistons, rings, or cylinder walls. If nothing happens when adding oil, it is most likely a valve problem or a cracked head.

[Olddaddy]

Jay, I would strongly recommend you sell me the Dodge and spend more time with the 55 Pontiac..........nice truck! It's amazing how some trucks of the same year and make, and model just look better than others. Even with the old paint and all, that truck is nice! Good luck, but really, sell it to me........

[bach4660]

Originally Posted by bach4660 View Post

you can add some oil to #6 and if it increases then it is a valve not the piston rings. OOPs, this is backwards, I guess I should read what I write before hitting submit. Thanks for catching this, nothing is worse than bad advice:o

[grey beard]

AND .. . . . . .

if you DO sell it, please know that it is sorta' unusual, what with that low side bed - never saw one in the flesh, only pics.

My own thoughts align with the Don - I think the low compression and non start issues are all related to the timing chain. If it slipped a tooth or two you would expect exactly what you now have.

Having said that, the facts can easily be proven by getting the engine to top dead center and looking at the distributor rotor. If it is NOT pointing toward the plug wire coming from the number one - front - cylinder, and no one has monkeyed with things yet since it quit, this will either prove the timing has jumped or that it is still as it should be. If the timing chain has jumped teeth, it will not run worth anything until this is fixed. I'm betting that a new chain and gears in there will put the compression back where it should be - around 100 or so - AND get it running again.

For reasons I cannot explain, every timing chain I have ever seen or heard of jump timing has always done so when the engine was either shut off or started - never on the go. I'll bet there's a good reason for this that someone here can come up with for us. JMHO:)

[Phil Martin]

I had to time my 53 on #6 cylinder.

[Guest OldschoolJay]

thanks guys, the truck will not be for sale.LOL

i sold my 55 pontiac yesterday to fund the dodge. i was also told to time it to the number 6 pistona s well. have never done a timing chain or gears. guess i have to pull the front sheet metal off and pull the rad. then how hard is it to replace?

i kind of like the low bed version, and it is a really solid truck. how do i pull the dist. out on this thing?

thanks for the tips and comments.

[knuckleharley]

.....

For reasons I cannot explain, every timing chain I have ever seen or heard of jump timing has always done so when the engine was either shut off or started - never on the go. I'll bet there's a good reason for this that someone here can come up with for us. JMHO:)

Most likely due to inertia and the "jerk" applied when it stops and starts. When running the "pull" on it is a constant and steady force. When you start it or shut it off there is a abrupt "jerk".

[Guest OldschoolJay]

so i haven't touched the truck for a few weeks, was on holidays.

plan to attack it this week aand want to get it sorted out. i have found the timing marks on teh pulley. can someone tell me where there number 1 or 6 plug wire sits on there dist? then i can do one last final check before i start to rip it apart. can oyu also post the firing order, want to make sur ei have it right.

was thinking that it would be easiest to just pull the front sheetmetal off than pull the motor? should i have access to the timing chain with the motor still mounted but all the sheetmetal and rad off?

thanks for the tips.

Jay

[Bouncy B]

My '49 ran like a top and then didn't. I had spark, fuel just like you. Cleaned points and replaced condenser and it fired up on the first try. Don't know if that's any help, but it sure is a simple and cheap fix.

Richard

[Guest OldschoolJay]

cool, i will try the condensor. where is it located? i am still kinda new at some of this. i did pull all the sheetmetal off the front oday to make workinga little easier. going to replace all the bolts and have some stuff sandblasted and spray it with tremclad. easier to lower the front as well with everything off.

thanks for the tips. i have the rad out now, but i will see if it flashes up quick.

J

[Reg Evans]

Jay,

The condensor is inside the distributor. There is an inexpensive shop manual on eBay right now that would be a big help to you in getting the truck back on the road. eBay # 300153104551

[Guest OldschoolJay]

thanks, picking one up.

i can do most things already, just not to informed on the elctrical part of stuff.

thanks for the help