1948 P15 Super DeLuxe sedan as LeMons racer

[Young Ed]

 

So, has anyone tried using a different setup?  We home brewed the Corvette C5 conversion on the van using 3/8" plate and lots of frustration but that was on relatively modern 3-bolt integrated hubs.  I am sure we can figure things out if we are in uncharted territory but just wondering if there is someone that did either a multi-piston brake of at least one where the whole diameter of the piston contacts the back of the pad.

 

Emphasis is also on chain store availability of replacement parts...in stock...on a Sunday.  This part is sadly more important than it should be.

 

Sounds like you might need to do the same thing. I believe there's a thread on here somewhere for using ford explorer brakes. You might even find a template to cut out your own steel mount.

[greg g]

Why not send Charley (old daddy user name) a PM explain to him what you want to use for calipers and maybe he can cut the brackets to accomodate the ones you have had success with.  Sounds like there should be some brake ducting and ventilated wheels in your planning also. I believe you might also look at jeepcherokee 4wd front rotors which will slide onto the stock hub ( no bearing spacer issues) after the drum is removed by grinding the rivets  I believe Explorer hat style front rotors are compatible also.  charlie's regular kit  has the criteria of being able to stick with stock rims, so the choice of parts was dictated by the confines of the stock wheel.  If that is not an issue, then the parts you spec could be based on your wheel choice, so you could go for larger diameter rotors and beefier calipers.  Some one mentioned early Dakota 5 bolt wheels, but Jeep and ford should fit the bolt pattern also.  

[OnkelUdo]

I did find this thread that was exactly as you described for the Explorer front rotors but sadly all the links seem dead.

 

http://p15-d24.com/topic/28870-front-disk-conversion-project/page-8?hl=%20ford%20%20explorer%20%20front%20%20brakes

 

Still, it lets me know there is a "simple" off-the-shelf option that just requires a flat steel bracket.

[Jeff Balazs]

So me and the co-owner are starting to put together a build plan and the topic of the front disc brake upgrade came up.  The easy answer is the Rustyhope kit but there is the very real fear this might meet our needs.  If, as suspected, this kit uses the GM A-body calipers they are the SMALLER version of the calipers that we literally turned the pistons into molten metal TWICE at two different races on the van.  The van is likely a couple hundred pounds heavier that the P15 will be but this failure was not an issue of pad compound, etc it was issue of the inherently flawed (for endurance racing...not street driving) design of the caliper.

 

We saw the Scarebird setup but if I am reading things right, same issue as it uses Celebrity calipers.

 

So, has anyone tried using a different setup?  We home brewed the Corvette C5 conversion on the van using 3/8" plate and lots of frustration but that was on relatively modern 3-bolt integrated hubs.  I am sure we can figure things out if we are in uncharted territory but just wondering if there is someone that did either a multi-piston brake of at least one where the whole diameter of the piston contacts the back of the pad.

 

Emphasis is also on chain store availability of replacement parts...in stock...on a Sunday.  This part is sadly more important than it should be.

I put a Grand Cherokee rear axle with 12" discs on my 52 3/4 ton truck. Got 3.55 ratio as part of the swap. I bring this up because I have the RH kit on the front and when it is paired up with these rear discs it makes for a superior braking system. It really shaves speed off fast.......and doesn't seem like it is working all that hard doing it. The truck weighs 4045# per a certified scale.

 

Jeff

[OnkelUdo]

I am not sure I can explain well enough the abuse brakes take in endurance road racing but I will try.  2.1 mile course with 11 turns.  Long straight should see 70 mph at which point you have to slow to 40 mph in about 40 ft if there is no traffic.  Accelerate to 50 mph to do the long 180 degree sweeper exiting at 55 mph, brake to 40 mph in about 20 ft for the esses, full throttle through two sweepers exiting at hopefully 60 mph, brake to 40 in about 25 feet for the next esses, and accelerate to 55 for the carousel and then punch it for the soft esses to the short straight and hopefully hit 70 by the end and brake to 50 to make the 90 leading on to the long straight to hopefully hit 70....

 

That whole exchange should be about 2:30 (2:18 in our race van) and repeated without pause for 2 hours.  Then you take a 15 minute refuel and driver change and do it again...3 more times.

 

We turned the same design caliper as what (I believe) is in the RH kit but with a 30% larger piston and pad area into molten metal two races in a row.  Basically the design allows the pad to banana and bevel because the piston does not act on the pad evenly.  For street driving this will NEVER be an issue.  When you need the pads to be at over 300 degrees to work properly and stay there for 8 hours straight, these uneven forces take their toll.

 

Granted, the melted caliper pistons happened on a vehicle with a race weight about 200#'s higher than the P15 will likely have but It had 11.5" rear rotors and 10.4" front rotors when we made art from the pistons.

[Jeff Balazs]

No doubt. I first read about this sort of racing when I was building my truck. Very cool stuff. Of all the various motorsport events this one actually holds my interest. Too many rules for me but the concept is interesting.

You might be surprised at how much difference having the rear discs makes. I don't have any numbers on how I have the front to rear bias adjusted........but the rears do more than most drum set ups and have a much better feel to them.

Jeff

[OnkelUdo]

No doubt. I first read about this sort of racing when I was building my truck. Very cool stuff. Of all the various motorsport events this one actually holds my interest. Too many rules for me but the concept is interesting.

Jeff

Shortest rule book in road racing as far as I know...6 pages to cover everything from flagging to required personal safety gear to car safety (cage, seat, extinguisher, etc) to the all important "No Whiners" policy.

[Jeff Balazs]

That is 5 1/2 pages too many for me.

The part that I appreciate is the reliability aspect. It would be considerably more interesting to me if it was a road based event similar to the old European Six Day Trials events.

At any rate have fun with it.

Jeff

[OnkelUdo]

As almost all of that 5 1/2 pages is specifics on safety requirements, only about a 1/2 page is applicable after your car has passed tech inspection the first time (unless you make changes that affect you ability to pass tech) I am more than OK with it.  A true road-based amateur racing series is just not feasible in the US these days because of safety and litigation concerns.  That said, if you do not mind going south of the border, the Chihuahua Express might be just the ticket...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chihuahua_Express

 

Oh, and we do have fun.  This is part of the reason we are bringing an even less suitable car to the grid for 2017...our minivan is getting to be a very competitive car and we are constantly in danger of winning our class against such fierce competition as Chevette diesels, Geo Metro's and Jaguar XJ6's.  Once that happens, the fun will diminish.

[Jeff Balazs]

You are right.....not going to happen here. The Trials events I was referring to were not races. Posted speed limits and traffic laws had to be observed. What they were was more like a observed endurance Rally. Most mechanical parts were marked and the drivers had to make their own repairs and finish section in a specified time. Things like punctured tires or loose parts could be repaired but replacement of major components were not allowed. It was a way for manufacturers to improve the reliability and road going performance of their vehicles. It was an extremely popular form of motorsport back in the day. 10's of thousands of spectators would set up along the roads to watch. I for one would love to see a vintage class of it return. I think it is far more valid than races held on closed circuits......but that is just me.

 

Jeff

[OnkelUdo]

Absolutely sounds like a perfect example of "to each their own".  Such a thing sounds less interesting than sanding drywall mud to me.

 

I will admit that a huge part of being successful in LeMons is not breaking down (hence why we keep beating lots of F-bodies, Mustangs and BMW's) but there is a element of the competition for driver skill/endurance, pit crew skill, and team strategy.

 

Besides, not being allowed to fix things that did break as part of the challenge would take the other side of the fun away.  One of our most memorable races was when we did an engine swap in 70 minutes to get back on the track for the last hour of racing.

Edited May 11, 2016 by OnkelUdo

[Don Coatney]

Absolutely sounds like a perfect example of "to each their own".  Such a thing sounds less interesting than sanding drywall mud to me.

 

I will admit that a huge part of being successful in LeMons is not breaking down (hence why we keep beating lots of F-bodies, Mustangs and BMW's) but there is a element of the competition for driver skill/endurance, pit crew skill, and team strategy.

 

Besides, not being to fix things that did break as part of the challenge would take the other side of the fun away.  One of our most memorable races was when we did an engine swap in 70 minutes to get back on the track for the last hour of racing.

Seventy minutes is pretty quick for an amateur team. I think the record is 11 minutes for an engine swap in NASCAR. 

[OnkelUdo]

Seventy minutes is pretty quick for an amateur team. I think the record is 11 minutes for an engine swap in NASCAR. 

Yeah we can do it faster but we had already cannibalized something off the spare sub frame to help anther team and had not reinstalled it yet.  We added quick disconnect wiring for everything and everyone had a laminate sheet with their jobs to do so steps were not missed.  With FWD (on the Saturn...van is a bit harder), it is pretty easy because the whole process was 4 sub frame bolts, 4 strut to knuckle bolts, 1 bolt for the coolant res, one bolt for the steering shaft and about 4 wiring QD's and drop the whole shebang out the bottom.

 

NASCAR and rally teams have insanely well engineered system that allow unheard of simplicity of assembly swaps.  Most Rally teams can swap tranny gears with the engine still running and no jacking.

[OnkelUdo]

Back on topic (not that I do not love a good sidetrack), one of the members supplied me with the scaled picture of the Ford Explorer two-piston caliper front brake bracket so one of my major concerns now has a solution.  That brake uses an 11.25" x 1" rotor so should be more than sufficient and allow us to run 16" wheels of a modern design.

[Young Ed]

Back on topic (not that I do not love a good sidetrack), one of the members supplied me with the scaled picture of the Ford Explorer two-piston caliper front brake bracket so one of my major concerns now has a solution.  That brake uses an 11.25" x 1" rotor so should be more than sufficient and allow us to run 16" wheels of a modern design.

If you can upload a template to the reference section for future use.

[OnkelUdo]

If you can upload a template to the reference section for future use.

I want to verify fitment first and add any notes or addendum first.  The user that supplied it did indicate having to oval the holes a bit to get things to fit so I would like to figure out which ones and see if I can get a cleaner copy...

Edited May 12, 2016 by OnkelUdo

[Young Ed]

I want to verify fitment first and add an notes or addendum first.  The user that supplied did indicate having to oval the holes a bit to get things to fit so I would like to figure out which ones and see if I can get a cleaner copy...

Sounds good! Get all the bugs worked out before I want to use it........

Actually I need brakes for my truck which I don't believe crosses over but happy to see it be preserved on the forum.

[OnkelUdo]

Relocated the car to our secret build and testing site today.

 

Opened up the engine and evaluated everything.  Small amount of rats nest but everything else looks great.  Piston are 30 over.  There was enough oil it for the preservation (I assume) of the bearings.  Everything appears to have been professionally assembled.  We will replace the head gasket and put it all back together with a new rear main seal, new water pump, etc.

 

One minor issue I could use help on is the large threaded hole and two smaller pipe thread bosses near the rear of the drive side.  This appears to be an oil filter housing location but so far those are the only parts not found to get an assembled motor.

 

Car did not have keys so stupid question...if I take the ignition key in to get a duplicate made will it match the door and trunk locks (in a perfect world of course) or should I skip that (only useful for the daily driver phase) an take in a door lock.

 

Finally, is there a preferred provider for tune up parts like cap, rotor, wires, etc?  Most other things we found through our normal contacts...so far.

[greg g]

As there were three or four different but similar distributors used on the various flathead engines over the years, it is important to get the dist part number from the plate on the side of the of the distributer, when you order turne up points.  Caps rotors, positionof the points within the body, the height of the body and also the cap changed through the years.  The distributors will interchange but not theparts inside.  The easiest way to service the dis is out of the car.  No dropping of small screws and no wrist contortions trying to get the feeler gauge in flat and square.  The number should be something like IAG or IAT or similar followed by some digits.  Recently it has been common for tune up stuff especially points to be junk.  Cheap plastic cam rubbing block, no lubricator wick, poor tension springs, non alinged point contact surfaces.  I found some good ones through a carquest jobber a few years ago and got three sets.  Some have said the ones from Bosche are still pretty good, NAPA brand have recently gone to off shore crap.  You are almost further ahead keeping what ever is in there and filing them when it's needed and running them till there ain't nothing left to file. By the way never use sand paper of emery cloth to dress ign points.  They will leave behind small pieces of abrasive that will embed into the surface and become a problem.

[OnkelUdo]

OK, Dizzy is IGS-4207-1.  So cap, rotor, wires, (potentially points and condensor)...where might be a good place to shop for these.  I am working my way through the distributors on the site list but I keep getting distracted by other things we might want.

[Niel Hoback]

Napa is a place to find ignition parts, but most any chain can get them.

The ignition key is made to fit the door locks, but the trunk key is different if no one has messed with them.

[greg g]

the 6 cyl universal wires sold at Tractor Supply are a pretty good deal.  Try vintage power wagons website for tune up parts.

[Young Ed]

Relocated the car to our secret build and testing site today.

 

Opened up the engine and evaluated everything.  Small amount of rats nest but everything else looks great.  Piston are 30 over.  There was enough oil it for the preservation (I assume) of the bearings.  Everything appears to have been professionally assembled.  We will replace the head gasket and put it all back together with a new rear main seal, new water pump, etc.

 

One minor issue I could use help on is the large threaded hole and two smaller pipe thread bosses near the rear of the drive side.  This appears to be an oil filter housing location but so far those are the only parts not found to get an assembled motor.

 

Car did not have keys so stupid question...if I take the ignition key in to get a duplicate made will it match the door and trunk locks (in a perfect world of course) or should I skip that (only useful for the daily driver phase) an take in a door lock.

 

Finally, is there a preferred provider for tune up parts like cap, rotor, wires, etc?  Most other things we found through our normal contacts...so far.

Sounds like maybe the oil filter and temp sender. Also are you allowed to convert to electronic ignition? Search the forum for slant six distributor conversion

[OnkelUdo]

Also are you allowed to convert to electronic ignition? Search the forum for slant six distributor conversion

We can do pretty much anything we want that does not cause a safety issue but unless there is a valid reason for the points to be a problem after 350 miles...not worth the cash for me at least.  We plan to run two races stock at about 250-260 miles a piece plus test and tune each race (say 50 laps) and some street driving.  After that...we repower or go stupid with hopping up the flatty.

[OnkelUdo]

Work on the 1947/48 (paperwork varies) begins in earnest after Memorial day because this weekend we finalize the mechanicals on the race van for the July 23-24 race.  After that, we just have to work on theme and the van gets loaded into the trailer.  To sit for 5-6 weeks.

 

All our engine gaskets and tune up parts are in but still waiting on the manual.

 

I pick up a bunch of Explorer parts Sunday from a guy parting out three explorers but it looks like I will do the PnP Memorial half price sale to pull the axle we.ratio we want.  We are going to run a 3.55 axle with theoretical top speed of 70-75 with the relatively short race tires.  The Explorer front and rear disc brakes with an as yet unknown master cylinder.  The hyper-expensive brake compound we use on the van (which lasts forever and gives us no issues with pad transfer) is available for the fronts but the rears will have to run something less exotic.

 

We will likely be leaving little of the trim (grill and headlight only) and interior in/on the car so will list all of that for sale eventually.  Not looking to make money on it but anything fair will go back into the car.

 

That is all for now as we are stalled until we can free up a garage stall by getting the race van in the trailer.