Best carbs to run on an edgy intake?

[lahti35]

What everybody running for carbs if you have an edgy intake? I'm looking for options other than the old '97... Got a flea market coming up next weekend and need to know what to keep my eyes open for.

[Don Coatney]

Lots of unknown variables. Engine size? Other performance enhancements such as dual exhaust, shaved head, improved camshaft ETC? Objective such as dependability, economy, performance expectations ETC. CFM requirement?

[lahti35]

I'm looking at a 218-230 with a shaved factory head and an edgy cam also, cast fenton headers, dual exhaust likely...

[doctor dirt]

My coupe (P22) 217 cu in has Fenton headers, Offy duals to dual exhaust with a slight cam. The carbs are single Carters and seem to work well

with the set up.

Doc

Edited September 10, 2015 by doctor dirt

[Sharps40]

Webers, probably a pair of the small carter weber duals would run well right out of the box.  Have to get or make adapters.  Langdon Stovebolt Engine company.  I see he is also releasing chrysler spitfire headers for the 25" engine soon.....

Edited September 10, 2015 by Sharps40

[martybose]

Webers, probably a pair of the small carter weber duals would run well right out of the box.  Have to get or make adapters.  Langdon Stovebolt Engine company.  I see he is also releasing chrysler spitfire headers for the 25" engine soon.....

+1.  I've had a pair of them from Stovebolt on my engine for some time now.  I actually read up on Weber jetting, bought a bunch of different types of jets and air bleeds, and eventually went back to what they came with.  The only hassle is setting up the linkage, since they open in the opposite direction. 

 

Marty

[oldasdirt]

I'm looking at a 218-230 with a shaved factory head and an edgy cam also, cast fenton headers, dual exhaust likely...

If you have cast iron headers  I certainly hope you wouldn't leave it as single exhaust.  What is "an edgy cam" ?   By that I mean what are the specs of the cam.  From what I have seen of the Edgy intake it is low like a fenton. Quick rev but looses a bunch of torque. If you haven't already bought that one, there are better ones available. Carter ball and ball carbs have a large range of cfm carbs. I have seen a list somewhere on the forum posted by someone listing differences.

[lahti35]

Not sure on the cam but it won't be anything wild, I don't want to sacrifice all reliability for performance sake...

 

I'd like to stick with some vintage carbs if I can...

[Plymouthy Adams]

so...did you make up your mind since last evening and purchasing the car.....you said today was the do or die decision

[lahti35]

so...did you make up your mind since last evening and purchasing the car.....you said today was the do or die decision

 

Yes I did... it will be coming home to live with me in the next few weeks!

[Plymouthy Adams]

excellent...you will catch more fish with a line in the water than ever sitting on the bank cutting bait..congrats...hope all works out well for you...

[blackp7coupe]

I have a Dodge 230 (bored .060") in my '39 Ply Business coupe - Fenton head, Edmunds intake, Fenton headers/duals, stock dizzy, Edgy cam (mild grind), with 2 B&B Carter carbs. I was told by Tom Langdon that this is too carburetion but the motor runs great.

[Don Coatney]

I have a Dodge 230 (bored .060") in my '39 Ply Business coupe - Fenton head, Edmunds intake, Fenton headers/duals, stock dizzy, Edgy cam (mild grind), with 2 B&B Carter carbs. I was told by Tom Langdon that this is too carburetion but the motor runs great.

So are you going to buy his carburetors?

[timkingsbury]

I have a Dodge 230 (bored .060") in my '39 Ply Business coupe - Fenton head, Edmunds intake, Fenton headers/duals, stock dizzy, Edgy cam (mild grind), with 2 B&B Carter carbs. I was told by Tom Langdon that this is too carburetion but the motor runs great.

which carter ball and ball carbs do you have ?  Given there is a huge huge range in the carter ball and ball carb lineup and Tom is well aware of that, it would be odd

he would say that was too much carburetion  if he had just the information you have posted. In fact I would go as far to say if you had a pair of some carter ball and balls

you wouldn't have enough carburetion.

 

I will attach my cheat sheet with a great deal of the more common carter b&b carbs.

 

 

Tim

Dodge knowledge document - plymouth and dodge-fargo truck carbs.doc

[Jeff Balazs]

I suspect that a lot of these dual carb set ups are being run much too rich. For initial set up about all you can do is go with something that has worked for someone else. This selection method leaves a lot to be desired. There are a lot of variables and in most cases you are going with a seat of the pants evaluation. I wonder how many of these get put on an exhaust gas analyzer and run at a wide range of speeds and loads? I suppose if your reason is to gain some wow factor then this is OK.....but the real gains come from an engine which is getting the correct fuel to air mixture all the time. How many of you have gone to the trouble of actually knowing for a fact that your mods are truly working correctly?

 

My take on a lot of these sorts of mods is they are done most often for bling. And that is OK if that is really what you are after. Surely there are small gains to be had by just bolting some of this stuff on. But it has been my experience that the real work just begins there and isn't really done until it has been fine tuned using the correct instruments.

 

Jeff

[Plymouthy Adams]

correct Jeff, seat of the pants is not substitute for proper testing evaluation techniques be it an analyzer for ratio or the dyno for actual added HP return.  Back in the day many change from two  barrel to 4 bbl with no intake, exhaust consideration ...when punched the excess gas caused it to fall on it's face a second then recover...giving folks that sudden jolt that they equated to a power boost.  In reality a pumped block with a higher output cam moves the HP curve to a higher RPM band one normally does not experience in street driving...and in truth, the lower end they are operating at with these cams result in 20 HP or more loss at the same street RPM as the stock engine was delivering...there are trade offs...HOW DO YOU WISH TO RUN THE ENGINE...that is the true bases for an engine build...

[lahti35]

Considering using some 1947 W1 carters with adapters.... I hear the BBR people went on strike and Plymouth used 574s for a bit...

Edited September 17, 2015 by lahti35

[55 Fargo]

I suspect that a lot of these dual carb set ups are being run much too rich. For initial set up about all you can do is go with something that has worked for someone else. This selection method leaves a lot to be desired. There are a lot of variables and in most cases you are going with a seat of the pants evaluation. I wonder how many of these get put on an exhaust gas analyzer and run at a wide range of speeds and loads? I suppose if your reason is to gain some wow factor then this is OK.....but the real gains come from an engine which is getting the correct fuel to air mixture all the time. How many of you have gone to the trouble of actually knowing for a fact that your mods are truly working correctly?

 

My take on a lot of these sorts of mods is they are done most often for bling. And that is OK if that is really what you are after. Surely there are small gains to be had by just bolting some of this stuff on. But it has been my experience that the real work just begins there and isn't really done until it has been fine tuned using the correct instruments.

 

Jeff

Better off with a "blower" , gets some real boost for fuel mixture to those cylinders.

I do see the merit of, having multiple carbs to provide a more uniform and efficient fuel/air ration to all cylinders.

In a properly set-up multi carb, 3 should utlitmately provide the best most effecient fuel distribution for performance gains.

Hopefully Tim Kingsbury will chime in again, and possibly shed more light on this topic. He and The Asche Boys, would be most knowledgable on this topic.....

Edited September 18, 2015 by Fargos-Go-Far

[Jeff Balazs]

Better off with a "blower" , gets some real boost for fuel mixture to those cylinders.

I do see the merit of, having multiple carbs to provide a more uniform and efficient fuel/air ration to all cylinders.

In a properly set-up multi carb, 3 should utlitmately provide the best most effecient fuel distribution for performance gains.

Hopefully Tim Kingsbury will chime in again, and possibly shed more light on this topic. He and The Asche Boys, would be most knowledgable on this topic.....

Well perhaps? But the question remains .... does anyone here put these dual or triple carb set ups on an exhaust gas analyzer? Without this step I think all you are doing is wishing and hoping it is kinda close. And many of these old carbs are not all that tuneable either....at least not like a webber.

 

Jeff

[timkingsbury]

Well perhaps? But the question remains .... does anyone here put these dual or triple carb set ups on an exhaust gas analyzer? Without this step I think all you are doing is wishing and hoping it is kinda close. And many of these old carbs are not all that tuneable either....at least not like a webber.

 

Jeff

lol.. answer: yes.  that is however a tiny piece of a much bigger puzzle.  The point that was made at one point was that two carter ball and ball carbs is too much for the engine in question. To that question my point was no its not.   In fact 3 carbs can provide better fuel distribution into the 3 Siamese ports.  But to your point, you are correct in principle.   But to add to the mixture here, what fuel, what octane, what all is in the fuel etc etc, all plays a factor  and it can lead to a huge amount of variables.

 

But back to simplifying things for the average hobbyist  without access to a lot of equipment.   Dual carbs and dual exhaust, with a pair of appropriate carter ball and ball carbs, can go a long way to improving a flathead mopar over stock.

 

Its why mopar did it on the 265 ci Dodge trucks, and if you put slightly smaller carbs than the big truck carbs, for a 230 or USA small block it can be quite effective.

[timkingsbury]

Better off with a "blower" , gets some real boost for fuel mixture to those cylinders.

I do see the merit of, having multiple carbs to provide a more uniform and efficient fuel/air ration to all cylinders.

In a properly set-up multi carb, 3 should utlitmately provide the best most effecient fuel distribution for performance gains.

Hopefully Tim Kingsbury will chime in again, and possibly shed more light on this topic. He and The Asche Boys, would be most knowledgable on this topic.....

 ok.. I chimed in and tried to focus on what the original poster was looking for and the comments about two ball & ball carbs being to much. 

[Jeff Balazs]

lol.. answer: yes.  that is however a tiny piece of a much bigger puzzle.  The point that was made at one point was that two carter ball and ball carbs is too much for the engine in question. To that question my point was no its not.   In fact 3 carbs can provide better fuel distribution into the 3 Siamese ports.  But to your point, you are correct in principle.   But to add to the mixture here, what fuel, what octane, what all is in the fuel etc etc, all plays a factor  and it can lead to a huge amount of variables.

 

But back to simplifying things for the average hobbyist  without access to a lot of equipment.   Dual carbs and dual exhaust, with a pair of appropriate carter ball and ball carbs, can go a long way to improving a flathead mopar over stock.

 

Its why mopar did it on the 265 ci Dodge trucks, and if you put slightly smaller carbs than the big truck carbs, for a 230 or USA small block it can be quite effective.

Tim;

Can you be more specific on this dual B & B set up? Surely a pair of the carbs originally intended as used as a single carb application would be too much? For example I have a 230 which came with a DTG1 carb. Are you saying that running two of these DTG! carbs would work properly?

 

Jeff

[Sharps40]

The factory one barrels are sized large enough to breath all the way up to the top of the rpm/power band.  Two full size factory one barrels mean reduced signal at low rpm, where your flat head works/powers best.  i.e. you move the "Best Signal" for the carb up the rpm range....its one reason why many have problems with low speed driveability with 2 or more full size singles on a small displacment 6.  Jetting can not compensate for all of it and either way, you have installed an induction system that works on the upper end of the rpm/power band.....i.e. a highway system.

 

Better is a single progressive two barrel like a Weber 32/36 or a pair of small singles like the Weber ICH or ICT or a pair of the Carter Weber Duals.

 

These smaller carbs all have barrels/flow ratings on the small side, especially on the primariary barrel of the duals....essentially, the signal remains strong at low rpm and you make good power with very snappy response.  When needed, the secondaries are brought in at about 60% throttle and your pair of duals now have a CFM rating closer to the rating of the pair of big singles that only work really well at high rpm.  For instance, the Weber 32/36 provides about 350 cfm with both barrels open, similar to your old single stroms and carters....but since its a 2 barrel progressive you can "tune" the low range at 140 cfm or so and have fantastic power and responsivness for the vast majority of your driving.  i.e. the duals don't have to compromize for good low and high rpm signals like the old singles which had to be large so as not to lose top end performance.

 

As a general rule of thumb, a pair of smaller single or duals on the 6's will be tunable, even though the total CFM can be as large or larger than the pair of stroms/carter B&Bs.   Think it thru, a pair of small barrel duals are no larger on the primaries than the single Strom/Carter and when open on the secondaries are not much larger than a pair of Strom/Carters.  You get the good top end, great bottom end, responsiveness and much better mileage since about 80% of your driving will be done on the smaller primaries.

 

Add an HEI, spend some time with jetting and exhaust analyzing and in a week or so you have a set up that starts like fuel injection hot or cold and you are done tuning anything for about 50K to 100k miles.

 

Tom Langdon at Stovebolts is your Induction Master for double barrel and dual carbs on inline sixes.

 

My 65 C10 250 six has not had the hood opened for carb adjustments since installing a Weber 32/36 two years back.  Driven daily, it is approaching 40K trouble free miles.  Ya may not like the look of the webers but if you want the best most tunable most adaptable most reliable carbs on the planet......just sayin.

 

Just remember the general rule of thumb, if you're running multiple carbs or a double barrel, you need SMALLER Carbs.  So your best choice of twin double barrels are the smaller carter webers.  If you run a single double barrel, make it a progressive so you have a smaller than strom/carter primery and combined barrels approaching the cfm rating of a single strom/carter.....i.e. the single double barrel functions like 2 carbs, a low rpm and a high rpm.

 

Luck.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Sharps40

[Tommy]

I'm running Holley 1904's from the early 60's Ford Falcon on my 251.

Starts and runs flawlessly. I had thought about switching to a pair of progressive two barrels to gain a bit more go, but the thing runs so great I changed my mind.