Cpt.Fred Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 When i was on a friend's car lift with Old Rusty last year, i noticed my king pins should be replaced, since i could see the hub having a little play when rocking the front wheels. I had purchased a complete front end rebuild kit at Kanter's when i got the car in 2008, so i think i should have everything on the shelf that i need for this operation, hopefully. I was thinking about adding truck shock mounts to my frame to improve shock absorbing capabilities, but i don't really know yet and have to do more research on that (what parts do i need, what else is important etc etc). So, i'm getting things apart right now and thought i'd open a thread here and post some pics of the progress. help, opinions and any info is greatly appreciated, as always! Here are some pics from that very nice afternoon on the car lift (we did some changes to the exhaust system and i changed all lubricants), afterwards we had a few beers in the car and listened to the tube radio playing ... Quote
50fordtruck Posted January 8, 2015 Report Posted January 8, 2015 Like the pics. and the old flathead ford next to the plymouth.I did a complete rebuild of my 47 Ply. front end about 12 years ago. I took a lot of pictures of everything as I disassembled it and found it helpful when reassembling it some month later. I used parts from Bernbaum in Mass. I was short a couple of seals but when I called and told them they sent them right out to me no charge. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 8, 2015 Author Report Posted January 8, 2015 yeah, i just took most of the front apart and already know i am missing parts here. always a bummer since parts have to go a looooong way until i get my hands on them... more updates and lots of pics tomorrow! Quote
Andydodge Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Fred, hadn't heard from you in a while, trust everything is fine.............if you are contemplating redoing the upper front shock mount it would be a good time whilst the kingpins are getting done..............though doing the kingpins doesn't require the splitting of the upper/lower arms the decision/work to redo the shock setup may be helped if you split the lower outer bush allowing you to remove the coil spring and then work the lower arm/shock mount thru its arc to help work out where to locate the upper shock mount pin...............does this make sense?............there have been quite a few different threads on here about doing this shock setup and if and when I ever get around to doing it I'll be doing it this way as with the spring out of the way the shock clearances near the upper A arm will be easier to judge with the arms moving freely..........anyway good to hear from you....btw what parts are you missing?..........regards, Andy Douglas Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Posted January 9, 2015 Hi Andy, Thanks, I'm fine here... hope you're doing good as well Thanks for the welcome, Frank! So, i did some work yesterday and here's the story: First, what do i need, what do i have? 1. A cozy place by the fire and some illuminative literature! 2. Parts, parts, parts... let's see what the box contains. First impression is, i'm short of some tie rod ends if i decide to do the complete steering linkage (which is what i'm going to do, i think...): Looks like i'll have to reuse the lower bolts connecting the uprights to the lower a-arms? I don't know where to put these 2 little bearings in the middle yet, but time will tell as i proceed with disassembly. Next thing, get the tools and air tools ready. Take the hub and drum assemblies off the spindles. Give the brakes and everything else a very close look. I don't really like what i see. Bearing seals seem to have failed and the grease got everywhere. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Posted January 9, 2015 Brake hoses look ok (they should, replaced them in 2008) but i think i'll get rid of them anyway and go for steel flex hoses. Since i'm planning to convert the car to 2-way master and brake booster this year i should change this as well, i guess. Next thing is get the jack under the lower a-arm to support it and keep the spring from killing me when i pull the bolt. Pull the savety pin and unscrew the nut of the lower a-arm bolt. Double check the jack's position and screw the bolt out of the a-arm from the rear. There we are, this is for cleaning and later reuse! Carefully lower the jack and voilà, the spring comes out nice and smooth. These are the Moog springs (ford Aerostar) i put in there last year for lowering. I put pieces of road bicycle tube over the spring ends to prevent sqeeky noises, works very well. Repeat the whole procedure on the other side. Now, when the spring tension is gone, you can easily check for freeplay in the bushings of the a-arms. Now i know I'm going for the full programm here. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Posted January 9, 2015 For my next step i took the brake assembly apart to get the backing plates off the spindles. Take out the brakeshoe springs and release the heel bolts that also hold the pitman arms to the spindles. Here you can see very well what the defective bearing seals did... There we are, heel bolts are out. To remember the correct order of washers and stuff i like to put every bolt back in place when i store the parts away for later treatment. The center sheets of the backing plates where the bearing seals used to be are pretty worn... Get the shocks out, loosen the sway bar bolts, store everything away and mark it to prevent later confusion. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Posted January 9, 2015 so this is where i am now. looks funny with the lower a-arms dangling loose... I will need new wheel bearings and seals, some tie rod ends for the inner part of the steering linkage, and most likely i'm going to do the shock mount swap. I'll do some research here on the board to get info on location of the mounts and what shocks i can use. Should'nt be too hard to pull this off now that everyhing will be in pieces anyway... i hope! Next think is getting the remaining parts out and give them a good cleaning in diesel oil! 1 Quote
rumble48 Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Good pic's, keep them coming, my 48 is a candidate for the same.... craig 1 Quote
martybose Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Fred, Glad to hear the comment about listening to the tube radio playing. Did the last part I sent you fix it, or was there more wrong with it? Marty Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 9, 2015 Author Report Posted January 9, 2015 rumble: i will, once i get the grease off my hands (i'm wrecking my keybaord right now).. Marty: we had to build an electronic solution for the whole thing, the vibrators were shot. Now i have a "line-in" plug and i can listen to my fancy modern MP3 country from the 40s... I'm happy with it! BTW... how do i get those ************************ (choose up to 3 swear words of outrageous character) line pins out of the king pins? Quote
Andydodge Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Fred......I assume you mean the lock pins?.........clean the crap, grease etc from both sides on the spindle and you should be able to see from which side they were installed then hammered into place.........use a brass drift or a accurately fitting steel punch and tap from the side opposite to that from which they were installed.........note the "taper" that they have to "lock" the kingpin.................once they are removed then remove the welch plugs above/below the kingpins and tap the kingpins out............those bearings that you ?? about appeared to be the thrust bearings for the kingpins...........andyd Quote
Frank Elder Posted January 9, 2015 Report Posted January 9, 2015 Good work Fred...now that's gettin' greasy, just in time, it wanted to get on your brake shoes. If you are still on your quest for lower you can remove the spring pockets from the top of the lower arm to the bottom....some say a 3 inch drop is possible. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 10, 2015 Author Report Posted January 10, 2015 (edited) Hey Andy, excactly, i mean those pins locking the king pins in place, so "lock pins" it is. I can''t post pics right now but i already did what you wrote, i have drawings of the whole mess in the handbooks as well. I scraped the grease off and checked the pins and it looks like they've been driven in from the rear, but they don't move at all. i pounded them for a while (and i'm not the first one doing that, judging from the look of the whole area around them...) but they chose to resist. So i took everything apart and next move will be putting them in the bench vise and heat-treat them with the torch... i have to get the road grime off first or the whole place will be up in smoke About the bearings, i thought only the 7-passenger-chassis had the upper part of the king pin supported in needle bearings. I have 4 bushings here for the king pin, and the bearings are ball bearings i think... let's see, maybe Kanter made a mistake. Most important thing will be to get all the parts and seals for the hub bearings. I have to dig through Bernbaum's and Kanter and some other places. Still some mysteries to be investigated here. More pics tomorrow! Frank: you're right, though i suspect a little of the grease might already have found it's way to the brake shoes. The brake dust was fealing a little greasy, i think... and my brakes never worked too good anyway. That's why i want to convert them this year. About the lowering, i have to take a good look at the geometrics of the whole thing, i don't want the front too low. taildragging is the thing i like best and suits the body style best, i think... last time i shortend my springs i was always bottoming out on the lower bump stops, and that was very unpleasant! But let's see... Have a nice weekend, everyone! Edited January 10, 2015 by Cpt.Fred Quote
Young Ed Posted January 10, 2015 Report Posted January 10, 2015 Fred the lock pins go in/out from opposite directions. So if you are pushing both of them towards the front you are certainly doing 1 wrong. 1 Quote
RobertKB Posted January 10, 2015 Report Posted January 10, 2015 Do not use heat on any of the steering or front end parts. It tells you not to in the manual. You may have to take the steering knuckle support to a machne shop to have them removed. You can mushroom the ends on the lock pins which make for hard removal. If there are marks around the end of the pins it may be that they were peened there to keep the pins in place. Again recommended in the manual. I have just done the same in my '51 business coupe and I had to take them to a machine shop. It is the first time I have had that trouble as I removed the lock pins on two of my other cars with very little trouble. 1 Quote
Andydodge Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Fred........as per what Robert says.......NO HEAT..........get a 3-4" long 3/8th bolt and a LARGE hammer, a couple of short hard jolts to the correct end of the lock pin should remove it.........as for the 7 passenger kingpins I have heard of and seen Torrington bearings used as a thrust bearing on kingpins but not heard of them on normal Mopars.........from my 1936-1942 workshop manual the sequence of parts looking from the front is.................stub axle lower, then thrust bearing, then thrust bearing shim/s if needed, steering knuckle support or spindle, then stub axle upper...........the kingpin goes thru all these and is locked into the spindle by the kingpin lock pin..............you mention 4 bushings...........yep...........one each for the upper/lower stub axle and one ball bearing thrust bearing for each side with its "opening" pointed down...............as for lowering, ideally take a stock spring to a spring shop and get them to make a new one 1-1.5" lower.........or maybe cut 1 coil off which will be approx. 2" lower.........dunno if any of this helps...............lol................regards, andyd Quote
Seaside Pete Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Fred........as per what Robert says.......NO HEAT..........get a 3-4" long 3/8th bolt and a LARGE hammer, a couple of short hard jolts to the correct end of the lock pin should remove it.........as for the 7 passenger kingpins I have heard of and seen Torrington bearings used as a thrust bearing on kingpins but not heard of them on normal Mopars.........from my 1936-1942 workshop manual the sequence of parts looking from the front is.................stub axle lower, then thrust bearing, then thrust bearing shim/s if needed, steering knuckle support or spindle, then stub axle upper...........the kingpin goes thru all these and is locked into the spindle by the kingpin lock pin..............you mention 4 bushings...........yep...........one each for the upper/lower stub axle and one ball bearing thrust bearing for each side with its "opening" pointed down...............as for lowering, ideally take a stock spring to a spring shop and get them to make a new one 1-1.5" lower.........or maybe cut 1 coil off which will be approx. 2" lower.........dunno if any of this helps...............lol................regards, andyd Andyd Not trying to steal the thread but I want to lower my 47 p15 approx 2". Does that "cut 1 coil off will lower approx 2" apply to my car? + do you know if different length shocks will be needed front & rear? Pete Quote
Andydodge Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Pete, one coil was cut from the front of my 1941 Plymouth and 2" lowering blocks installed on the rear springs with the stock shock absorbers retained.....the ride was o/k but the long term plan was to get new coil springs made for the car, which didn't happen as it was sold..........the 1940 Dodge on the other hand has mid 50's Ford front springs that coupled with the extra weight of the 318 poly and cast iron torqueflite has dropped the front end a little, the rear end is a late Oz Falcon rear axle mounted on the stock springs........again uprated but stock style shock absorbers.....andyd Quote
Seaside Pete Posted January 11, 2015 Report Posted January 11, 2015 Thanks Andy The other thing that I am a bit worried about is that I am running stock 16" wheels but with 6.50 x 16 tyres (tires) instead of 6.00 x 16 so wondering if would have rubbing issues on the front wings (fenders)? Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 hey pete, go look at the "new ways to lower the rear end" thread i started some time ago. there is lots of info on lowering there with pictures. if you should decide to cut coils, don't start with a full round. that might be too much and afterwards you don't have a choice anymore. been there, done that. i'm running Ford Aerostar springs in the front and they are said to lower the ride height about 1" to maybe 1 1/2". Still pretty high, but they're fresh and new, much better ride than the old sagged originals. Robert and Andy, thanks for the "no heat" tip, makes sense to me! I'll have a try at puhing the pins out in the bench vise later today. Ed, thanks, i'll have a closer look to the pins once more. Waht i can say is that one is sticking out pretty far while the other one isn't... more pics later! Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Posted January 11, 2015 got the bolts out. happy camper. tired and veeerrrrry dirrrrty. more tomorrow. thank you good night. Quote
Andydodge Posted January 12, 2015 Report Posted January 12, 2015 Pete when I lowered the car it was still running the stock wheels & tyres it came with...........6.00/16's and they cleared the fenders even with the 2" drop..........andyd Quote
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