Help Please, 251 Chysler Spitfire Starter?????

[skiviskaves]

I just bought a '36 Chrysler coupe with a '51 Chrylser spitfire flatty.  The starter that is in it makes an aweful grinding noise.  I don't believe it has the correct starter in it, gears dont mesh properly and there is no solinoid on the outside of the starter.  The car is 12V.  What should I be using with this and where can I find it?  Is there a suitable replacement starter, or do I need to find an original starter and then change to a 12V solinoid?  Thanks in advance!!!

 

 

[Don Coatney]

Have you inspected the ring gear and the starter gear for wear? I assume you still have a 6 volt starter motor?

[Don Coatney]

Also what bellhousing was used? What flywheel? Was the original crankshaft a 4 bolt or an 8 bolt where the flywheel attaches? What starter was used? Without answers to these questions it will be very difficult to figure out what is wrong.

[james curl]

This is always a problem when you buy a car someone else has built but did not include a diary of the build with the car.  There is no way you can answer Don's questions without that information.

[Plymouthy Adams]

hopefully the Autolite red tag is still on the starter...(red =6 volt)  Green tag is 12...if twelve do you have the right bendix to match the flywheel..these again are question you must resolve...list the color and number...my Motors may have that starter application listed...if original to the 51 engine the starter number should be MCL-610X  where x could be a 1, 8 or 9

[Don Coatney]

Is this a new problem or is this the reason the prior owner sold the car?

[greg g]

If there is no solenoid, is the starter engaged manually, with a foot pedal, where does the primary wire from the starter lug go?  A close up pic of the starter in its installed position might shed some more light on the situation.  These starters typically have 2 failure modes, the brushes wear to low to contact the commutator, or the end plate and bearing bushings wear oval, which causes engagement problems, and slow rotation from the armature dragging on a field coil.  Both of these can be addressed with parts.  The starter gear to flywheel interface can cause the problem you mentioned as there were different ring gear and starter gear tooth counts and they must be compatible.  you can drop the sheet metal dust cover off the bottom of the bell housing to check the condition of the ring gear and possibly do a tooth count.

 

By the way your coil is mounted upside down from the way the factory did it.  Not a big deal just an observation.

Edited July 2, 2013 by greg g

[John Reddie]

The starter in the photo does not appear to be a foot pedal type, Can you post more photos of the car? Thanks.

John R

[Tom Skinner]

1946 -1948 and early 1949 models for 250.6cu.in. engine:

Starter No. # MAX4050

They are hard to come by, on e-bay I saw one get away from me for $250 a month or so ago.

They regularly go for the $350 - $450 range (Rebuilt and clean looking).

These Starter Rebuilder's are roaming e-bay snapping them up and rebuilding them and selling them

to overseas Mopar owners in the $750 range. I know because I spoke to one of them on the phone, up in N. Dakota

Auction House are on there buying them also, they are also snapping them up cheap and auctioning them off.

So your competition on a Starter is most likely going to be a real bother. That MAX4050 only comes up once or twice a year on ebay

When opportunity knocks don't try to be cheap on your bid. Timid won't win it.

Good Luck!

Tom

PS. By the way your picture doesn't look like the MAX4050. 

Edited July 3, 2013 by Tom Skinner

[skiviskaves]

Thanks for the replies.  Problem is I posted prematurely.  I just bought the car, it is currently on a truck headed toward my house, scheduled to arrive Sunday...I haven't even seen the car in person yet; crazy I know.  I'm going off what the seller told me, which is that there is a horrible grinding.  He said the flywheel has 146 teeth, counted by hand, and that the starter has 9...which doesn't divide out quite even.  Thus I assume the starter is wrong for the car.  The teeth may have been counted wrong too.  It's a '51 Spitfire engine mated to a '36 3-speed w/OD, in a '36 Chrysler coupe.  I'll be able to give more info when the car arrives, just wanted to get a jump on this issue so that I can start enjoying the car ASAP.  

[Don Coatney]

Where was this car located and where is it going (as in where are you located)? May be someone on this forum close to you who can offer assistance.

[skiviskaves]

Got the car. Tried to start it and as advertised lots of grinding and then the starter spins free. The starter from my 40 Plymouth with stock 218 has the same cone and gear as the starter that came with the car but the body is slightly skinnier and slightly longer. I tried throwing in the 218 starter and it turned the ring gear with no grinding at all, the car started and ran great. Got two good starts this way with no grinding, then on the third start there was a clunk when I turned the key, but the car started right away. Forth attempt, grinding. Pulled the 218 starter out to find the cone casting had broken off! Inspection: the tops of the ring gear teeth are worn and slightly mushroomed but not terrible. The ring gear is held on by 8 bolts to the crank. Not sure how to identify the bell housing, the trans is 3-speed with push button overdrive advertised as a 1936. When the starter engages the ring gear the face of the starter gear passes the back face of the ring gear by about 1/4" with my 218 starter which moves in and out. It seems as though the starter gear from the starter I removed from the car (PS291 cast in cone) does not retract very far (does not move in and out when turned by hand). Where do I go from here? . Thanks! Sorry posting from phone and can't add pics.

[skiviskaves]

Starter is not foot type, it cranks with the key. Both the starter I removed and the 218 starter are 6V powered by 12V. The previous 2 owners of the car have had the same issue but always managed to start the car with some grinding. After putting in the 218 starter and hearing it crank so well with no grinding I was so excited, and then clunk. The 218 cone is currently being weld repaired by a friend who is awesome with cast.

Edited July 10, 2013 by skiviskaves

[Don Coatney]

First off the ring gear is a press fit on the flywheel. However you must remove the flywheel in order to remove the ring gear.

 

I dont know for sure but I suspect your problem may be depth of the starter mount to the bellhousing. To explain further, I installed a long block Desoto (same size as Crashler) engine in my Plymouth P-15. I used the P-15 flywheel and the P-15 bellhousing. The crankshaft flywheel mounting flange on the long block engine is thicker than the P-15 flange. This moves the flywheel/ring gear back further into the bellhousing. A long block flywheel is recessed, a P-15 flywheel is not. To make my combination work I had to modify the bellhousing starter mount surface as pictured below. This may or may not be your problem. I recommend you take measurements. I suspect the 36 Chrysler bellhousing may be closer in measurements to my P-15 bellhousing as in 1936 Chrysler did not have fluid drive. Measure, measure again, and measure again. I can only tell you what worked for my application. May not work for your application.

 

 

[garbagestate 44]

^{look at the fifth post on this thread. a forum member found an assembly error and posted some useful pictures. This new improved site won't let me do a simple url copy and paste so I'll give you the title to search with." Startermotor-flywheel question"}

[Don Coatney]

One additional thought. A 6 volt starter motor works on 12 volts. But the problem is the 6 volt starter motor spins faster and thus the bendix engages faster than a 12 volt starter. That means that if there is much wear on the starter gear and/or the ring gear it may cause a miss mesh of the gears and you will hear grinding and or lock up of the gears. If lock up occurs you may have to rock the car back and fourth while the transmission is in gear or remove the inspection plate and turn the flywheel with a pry bar to free the locked up gears. That is why I installed a 12 volt starter in my application.

[skiviskaves]

As I mentioned, by my measurements the face of the starter gear passes the back face of the ring gear by about 1/4"  It seems as though my starter might be too close as oppose to too far (like Don's).  Does anyone know the position of proper engagement?  Should the face of the starter gear be flush with the back of the ring gear on full engagement? 

While my cracked 218 starter is being welded up I tried throwing the starter (PS291) back in that came with the car, along with 1/4" of shims.  Still grinding.  It is possible that this starter was assembled wrong, as described in the thread referenced by garbagestate44, haven't disassembled it yet.

I am having the 218 cone housing weld repaired and adding an extra pass or two of weld over the bellhousing fit area of the housing.  I plan to machine the fit 1/4 longer to maintain alignment when shimming this starter out away from the bellhousing. 

I'm still not positive that any of my starters are correct for this ring gear application.  The fact remains that I may have to change the ring gear not only because the application may be wrong, but also because the teeth may be too worn after being ground on by the previous owners for so long. 

In summary, my ring gear may or may not be shot and/or (1) of my starters may be assembled incorrectly.  Not sure if I have the correct starter/ring gear combo.  How much gear engagement should there be?  If I do need to start replacing parts (specifically the ring gear) what should I get and where do I find it, any suggestions? 

[Scruffy49]

Classifieds on this website, put up a wanted ad. Vintage Power Wagons sometimes has long block flywheels and ring gears. One or more of the Sweptline forums/sites, as the 251 was in use in one ton 4wd conventional cab through end of model year 1963 (very scarce, but you stumble on a parts junker ocassionally).

 

Some top level machine shops can rebuild your existing ring gear teeth, but it is a course of last resort. Phenomenally expensive. Figure on a dollar per tooth, per step, plus heat treating fees.And add in the shop labor rate... at least, that's how they work around here (Memphis TN area).

 

There is nothing cheap about repairing an L6, especially the bigger blocks. But it is definitely worth it for a period "hop up" like you have. Nice looking engine.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Scruffy49

[Tom Skinner]

Skiviskaves,

Can you first try shimming it? then report back your findings.

That would be the first cheapest option toward a possible repair?

If that doesn't work, then go on with other options - plan B etc.

Tom

[55 Fargo]

If worse, comes to worse, may have a ring gear hear, and maybe an old starter to match. They would be from a Chysler 251. It would cost you a bit for shipping........

[skiviskaves]

Again, does anyone know the proper gear engagement length?  Should the face of the starter gear be flush with the back of the ring gear on full engagement, or is it suppose to overlap by 1/4" like mine does. 

I tried shimming the PS291 stater that came with the car back 1/4" with some custom washers, still grinds, grinds, grinds! 

So, plan A:  I have a suspision that some of the previous damage to the ring gear is causing some binding, which could have been the reason my 218 starter worked well but then cracked.  I speculate that the PS291 starter may have not been assembled correctly as described above, causing the bendix not to travel in and out as designed, and causing constant engagement while the engine is running.  As a result, ring gear damage.  My plan is to individually and carefully file the burs and high spots off the 146 ring gear teeth.  Then I plan on installing my weld repaired, remachined, properly functioning 218 starter.  Turn the key and pray to God.  Getting back to my question above, should I install it with shims or not, don't want to break it again, what is the proper engagement?

Plan B:  If plan A fails I will likely have to find a replacement ring gear.  55fargo, thank you so much for the offer.  I will keep you posted. 

[greg g]

I would think that any mounting position that allows to allow the starter pinion to engage the ring gear so that it is fully engaged with the teeth of the ring gear should work.  That is. as long as the full thickness of the ring gear teeth are some where along the pinion teeth so that they are fully covered by the pinion should be good.  The caveat being that you so not want the pinion moving to far to the rear so that the shoulder rear shoulder of the pinion slams into the face of the ring gear. What does the rig gear look like, is it in good condition or are there damaged missing or partially missing teeth?  The ring gear can be removed and replaced or flipped if the back end of the teeth is in better shape than those currently facing the starter.

[Don Coatney]

So you have something to compair to this is my ring gear.

 

[skiviskaves]

Makes sense Greg.  The ring gear teeth are a bit rounded off on top.  The tops of the teeth have mushroomed a bit resulting in overhanging materal on the back side of the ring gear.  There is notch on the front face of each ring gear tooth in the shape of the starter gear.  Not sure if these notches were worn in or there by design to help with lead in.  Don's ring gear certainly looks a lot better than mine.  It is my understanding that this car has been started by grinding the gears for quite some time.  Unfortunate that the previous owners neglected this problem and just kept grinding away.

Edited July 11, 2013 by skiviskaves

[greg g]

The front (engagement side) of the ring gear teeth are beveled slightly. When I rebuilt my engine, I had my ring gear flipped by the machine shop, a fairly common practice.  The tail end of the ring gears are cut square.  The difference between the beveled and square cut seems to make no difference in how my starter engages.

Edited July 11, 2013 by greg g