Overdrive Won't Engage

[woodie49]

I have completed the installation of my overdrive in my '49 Woodie and had mixed results.  I replaced the rear main seal, clutch and PP, T/O bearing, pilot bushing and rear differential seal at the same time.

Happily - no leaks.  Everything seems nice and dry under the car at the moment. 

 

But, I have a problem:

 

The overdrive will not engage (and that was the point of the whole project  ).

 

When I bought my unit (which i beleive came from a '53 plymouth - it bolted right in) it did not have a relay, so I am using the bosch relay 0332204001 that has been used nurmerous times for the OD relay on the older Borg Warner OD trannys and there are articles on it all over the net on it. 

 

I definately have the wiring correct.  I get continuity across the control circuit at about 28 MPH. I can jump from the battery to the solenoid across my fuse block (inline to the #4 solenoid terminal)  and can hear the solenoid clicking.  I pulled the solenoid out of the car and plunger pops out  when I hook it up to a 6V battery with jumpers.  Everything looks good, and still the OD will not engage.

 

Today I hooked up a wire From the solenoid #4 terminal to a voltage meter in the car.  When I hit about 28 MPH, I get a constant reading of 6 volts.  So, it seems like everything is happening that should be happening, but still the OD does not engage (yes, I know I need to let up on the gas).

 

When I am mechanically in OD, I free wheel in each gear, so I know that something inside the OD unit is happening right.

 

I suspect that, while I get 6 volts to the solenoid, maybe I am not getting enough amps through the system?  I have 10 Ga. wire running from the battery terminal on the horn relay, directly to the bosch relay for the constant  hot side of the solenoid circuit.  Then I have 10 ga. going out of the solenoid to a 20 amp fuse block that is soldered on both ends, then 10 ga. running down to the solenoid. Today, I ran the test wire I hooked up to the #4 terminal to test the voltage (also 10 Ga.) directly to the out side of the bosch relay, which by-passed the fuse and connections.  but it still will not make the downshift into OD.

 

Is it possible that the solenid is defective even though it will pop out when hooked up to a battery?

 

I am sure the solenoid is in properly installed as once I rotate it to get it into the pawl and turn it back to line up the holes, it can not be withdrawn from the trans.

 

I am not familiar enough with the mechanics of the OD to know if there is something mechanically that would prohibit engagement when the solenoid is trying to engage (again, i know I am getting current to it, and I can short the circuit and here it loudly clicking).

 

I get no strange machanical noises coming from the trans, either in or out of the OD position.

 

This where i am with it.  I have done about every test I know how to do.  I am not good with electrical.  I can read a voltage meter, that is about all. 

 

I am considering replacing the solenoid, but I also think I am kidding myself. 

 

Anyway, Doheneywood (So Cal woody clubs opening summer event) is in two weeks.  I live about 300 miles away, but used to be in So Cal.  So, I am registered and hoping to drive down there at 70 rather than 55MPH.  I doubt I could source a solenoid in the next few days, even if that is the issue. 

 

for those of you familiar with OD units - any help would be greatly appreciated.  I have pretty much run out of ideas.

 

Sorry for the long post, but I thought explaining where I am and what I have done will help.

 

 

 

[Alshere59]

Are you running a tach? Sounds odd but in second if you run up to 35 mph then let off the gas do you see a decreased rpm? I let my brother drive mine and he didn't feel it engage. Wild guess but it is all I can think of. If you have a tach dwell meter hook that up and see if the RPM drops.

 

This what is shown in the link in the resource area for running the Bosch relay

.

BAT #10 gauge Black Wire Connects to Pin#87 on relay
SOL #10 gauge Red Wire Connects to Pin#30 on relay
IGN #16 gauge Red/Yellow Wire Connects to Pin#86 on relay
THSW #16 gauge Green Wire Connects to Pin#85 on relay

[Dodgeb4ya]

I would temporarily run a fused 10 Ga. wire from the BAT through a switch you can open and close in the car and connect the other end to #4 terminal on the solenoid. That way you can power and control the solenoid directly. Drive it and see if it works. Turn the power of when below 25MPH.Generally I have found that the plunger when energized with 10 Ga. and 6 volts slams the plunger out very hard and firm. You cannot push the plunger back in with force. If you cannot force the plunger in during a bench test it will move the pawl. If it does move the pawl once  installed in the trans-and how could you be sure it should go into OD. Now if it doesn't it could be a seized up planetary set and sun gear. When you drained the oil out of the back half of the case to change it what did it look like and how much came out? At least a pint should have come out and it should have looked kinda opaque-not just a little bit of black goo.

Bob

[Alshere59]

Sounds like you have already been there but just in case.

http://mopar.pairserver.com/p15d24ph_forum/index.php?/files/file/29-over-drive-solenoid-information/

[woodie49]

This is a good thought, but I have another car with OD, so I used to the feeling of the car shifting into OD. And I live near highway one, so I have plenty of room to test drive at various speeds. It just isn't happening. The wiring diagram you included is the way I have wired my relay. It took all kinds of time on the net checking the operation of the Bosch unit and several sources for the wiring (it is probably intuitive to most people, but my understanding of eletric flow is limited).  I note in some the #86 and # 85 pins are reversed. The Bosch unit has an internal Diode, so the wiring above is correct. I appreciate the info.

 

Are you running a tach? Sounds odd but in second if you run up to 35 mph then let off the gas do you see a decreased rpm? I let my brother drive mine and he didn't feel it engage. Wild guess but it is all I can think of. If you have a tach dwell meter hook that up and see if the RPM drops.

 

This what is shown in the link in the resource area for running the Bosch relay

.

BAT #10 gauge Black Wire Connects to Pin#87 on relay
SOL #10 gauge Red Wire Connects to Pin#30 on relay
IGN #16 gauge Red/Yellow Wire Connects to Pin#86 on relay
THSW #16 gauge Green Wire Connects to Pin#85 on relay

[Dodgeb4ya]

A quick wayto check for OD engagement and correct operation is to bupass the wiring and the Bosch relay. Wire it temorarily for direct control of the solenoid. When I used to build them I would bench test them this way before sending them to the owner.

[woodie49]

I will try this tomorrow.  If this doesn't work, I will pull the solenoid and bench test it to see if the plunger is firmly out. 

It was several years ago that I drained the transmission as it was leaking all over my garage from the rear seal. I do not remember anything being disconcerting about the oil draining out.

It seems like if the sun and planetary gears were seized, I should hear an awful noise when the solenoid tries to hold the sun gear stationary. I assume the speed of rotation would keep the pawl from moving into the slotted hub of the sun gear, but it would probably make a buzzing sound or something.

I get no unusual sounds driving the car in either direct drive, or overdrive above the speed where the kickdown should occur.

I just feel (probably because it is easier than tearing the OD apart) that this is an electrical or solenoid issue.  

I think the direct wiring test and the bench test should give me an answer tomorrow.  Thanks for the suggestions.

I would temporarily run a fused 10 Ga. wire from the BAT through a switch you can open and close in the car and connect the other end to #4 terminal on the solenoid. That way you can power and control the solenoid directly. Drive it and see if it works. Turn the power of when below 25MPH.Generally I have found that the plunger when energized with 10 Ga. and 6 volts slams the plunger out very hard and firm. You cannot push the plunger back in with force. If you cannot force the plunger in during a bench test it will move the pawl. If it does move the pawl once  installed in the trans-and how could you be sure it should go into OD. Now if it doesn't it could be a seized up planetary set and sun gear. When you drained the oil out of the back half of the case to change it what did it look like and how much came out? At least a pint should have come out and it should have looked kinda opaque-not just a little bit of black goo.

Bob

[Dodgeb4ya]

Yes you want it to be electrical. I think thats what it is as you said it free wheels. Solenoid needs all the proper 6 volt heavy current supplied by a properly operating relay!

[woodie49]

Well,  I'll follow your advice and we'll know tomorrow.

Thanks

Yes you want it to be electrical. I think thats what it is as you said it free wheels. Solenoid needs all the proper 6 volt heavy current supplied by a properly operating relay!

[Alshere59]

Are the blue and green wire on your horn relay pic the ones you added for your OD? It looks like you crimped your connections are they soldered as well. May just be a bad connection not letting enough power flow. May want to take an ohms reading on the wire connections working your way to the bosch relay then going to number 4 terminal.

 

 

You might look at this diagram as well as it feeds from the starter relay. The horn relay should work also though.

 

[Don Coatney]

A few years ago forum member Richie Hodge had a generator failure while on the road. His overdrive quit working at the same time due to low voltage. As b4ya said you need all the proper 6 volt heavy current. Is your generator functioning correctly? What voltage do you read at the battery with the engine running at high idle?

[martybose]

When I first installed my OD unit it wouldn't shift either.  It turned out that I had the cable installed wrong and it wasn't getting enough throw to allow the interlock to work correctly.  Adjusting it for full throw fixed it.

 

Marty

[DJ194950]

When the OD solenoid is installed aligned ready to install mount bolts but not yet bolted down,

Pull outward on solenoid does it pull out? It should NOT be able to be removed without turning it.

If it can be removed by doing that the shaft is not locked into the OD shifter prawl. Run into that in the past. With solenoid totally removed, use a hooked pick to pull outward on the prawl as far as possible (rotating the driveline may be needed to get prawl disengaged).

Reinstall solenoid with rotation and recheck.

Just a possibility!

Best of luck, you'll love the OD when working!

Doug

[woodie49]

I think the problem is a whimpy solenoid.

 

I tried direct wiring to the battery through a switch with no results, so i pulled the solenoid again. Running direct from my battery with jumpers, the plunger pops out, but I note that the retraction actually seems to have more force that the outward movement.

 

when the plunger is out, I CAN push it back with my hand, and it isn't very hard to do so.

 

Also, I can stop the plunger from coming out on engagement (I think it initially has a lot more oomph going out than staying out) with my hand as well.  And again, it isn't all that hard. It looks like my unit has been worked on in the past as you can see by the pictures - some new soldering is evident. The points are pretty worn as well, but I am not sure which circuit these points control.

 

I don't know the thrust required to push the pawl until it engages the sun gear, but it seems like it should be more than I have.  My packard has an OD as well, but the throw on the solenoid is longer and the set-up slightly different, or I would borrow it to test and to get me to my upcoming event.

 

I think I will need to source a solenoid.  A company called 5th Aveneue used to offer remanned units.  Anyone tried one of theirs??

 

Any other good sources to check??

 

Thanks

 

 

[DJ194950]

Try cleaning the points, check again! Should take a good effort pushing agaist something solid, should be very hard to push back in.

Checked on ebay as they used to have used avail. 50-60 bucks! Now the current prices about same as a new price.

The packard solenoid is probably the longer plunger type 1 1/4" vs. 1" most had, measured from the mount surface to tip of the plunger. Not usuable if so.

5th.ave.garage now sells new not reman'ed but for $265 + shipping.

I have a spare 6v. solenoid, not to sure of working order. Maybe someone close to you has a spare to use on your trip.( I'm in CA.).

Best to ya,

Doug

[Jim Yergin]

I believe Studebaker used the same solenoid. If so then this would be a less expensive alternative:

https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/store/s/agora.cgi?product=elecj&cart_id=7357.27568

Jim Yergin

Edited April 3, 2013 by Jim Yergin

[woodie49]

Alshere59 sent a link to instructions to refurbish a solenoid, and I tried that tonight.  But, the solenoid seemed very clean inside and there is really no difference after cleaning it up and filing the points. The points are not in great shape, but seem to make good contact, but I can push the plunger back in with one hand while hooked up to a battery. 

 

The packard solenoid has a much longer plunger on it, as well as a spacer (its a '41, so somewhat different) definately not an option.

 

Looks like my next bet is a new solenoid.

Try cleaning the points, check again! Should take a good effort pushing agaist something solid, should be very hard to push back in.
Checked on ebay as they used to have used avail. 50-60 bucks! Now the current prices about same as a new price.
The packard solenoid is probably the longer plunger type 1 1/4" vs. 1" most had, measured from the mount surface to tip of the plunger. Not usuable if so.

5th.ave.garage now sells new not reman'ed but for $265 + shipping.

I have a spare 6v. solenoid, not to sure of working order. Maybe someone close to you has a spare to use on your trip.( I'm in CA.).

Best to ya,

Doug

[woodie49]

Thanks Jim, I'll contact them tomorrow.  They are in Arizona and I am in San Luis Obispo, so I would think it could arrive before i need to leave for Doheneywood. My project this winter (before the overdrive) was to wet sand the paint on the Woodie because it was so covered with orange peel I thought I would have to repaint it. The paint has been on since i bough it 6+ years ago.  Plenty of rubbing with 1000 grain paper (I did not want to go through the paint). After the wet sand and polishing, it came out great, much better than I had hoped. So, we are looking forward to the Woodie gatherings this summer.

I believe Studebaker used the same solenoid. If so then this would be a less expensive alternative:
https://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/store/s/agora.cgi?product=elecj&cart_id=7357.27568
Jim Yergin

[SmokeyC3]

I usually just lurk here because my truck a '56 C3 is off topic but I see a fellow in need of some help. If you are sure you have the wiring correct as stated in your first post,  the blocker ring maybe out of position. The blocker ring has to be in the correct position when you reinstall the solenoid. If you don't have the BW overdrive manual I highly recommend you download it from this site. Lots of good information and it has instructions to remedy this. Go up top, click on resources then downloads and poke around 'til you locate it. If you cant find it I can email you a copy. I got it here while working on my own OD.

[suntennis]

Maybe you have done this test, but have tried bypassing the speed sensor to see if it will go into overdrive? If the speed sensor is not grounding, the OD solenoid will never operate. This was the problem with mine. To bypass the speed sensor, ground the wire from the lockout switch. The result if everything is working is that you are not speed restricted for going into OD.

[woodie49]

Yes, I have tested the control circuit with the car running at speed.  since I am using the bosch replay, all my wiring is under the dash, so it is pretty easy to test while running.

Maybe you have done this test, but have tried bypassing the speed sensor to see if it will go into overdrive? If the speed sensor is not grounding, the OD solenoid will never operate. This was the problem with mine. To bypass the speed sensor, ground the wire from the lockout switch. The result if everything is working is that you are not speed restricted for going into OD.

[woodie49]

Ordered the solenoid Wednesday from Studebakerparts.com and it arrived today (great service).  Unfortunately, when I bench tested it, it "machine gunned" like crazy.  I was running direct from my battery to the solenoid through jumper cables. I am definately bummed out.  No problem sending it back, but he has no more in stock and it will take a week to get one.    So, I may have to tank my trip to Doheneywood.  Haven't decided yet, but its 300 miles at 55 - 60 MPH. 

 

Maybe I'll have better news to report back next week.

[Harvey Tank]

Like was mentioned a fore the blocker ring is probly out of position. if you don't have the BW Overdrive manual yet here is a couple of pages about how to reposition the blocker ring. Hope this is helpful.

[plyroadking]

I can loan you a good one to make the trip, I have several spares

[woodie49]

Smokey and Harvey Tank.

 

Thanks for this suggestion.  I do have the OD manual but missed this as a cause.  This shows a lot of promise given everything I am seeing with my OD.  If this is not the cause, it will also settle whether the solenoid has enough force to engage the pawl into the sun gear, as I will be able to see the travel of the plunger. If it works standing still and not moving, then I would assume the trouble is the solenoid.

 

I am looking forward to testing this tomorrow.

I usually just lurk here because my truck a '56 C3 is off topic but I see a fellow in need of some help. If you are sure you have the wiring correct as stated in your first post,  the blocker ring maybe out of position. The blocker ring has to be in the correct position when you reinstall the solenoid. If you don't have the BW overdrive manual I highly recommend you download it from this site. Lots of good information and it has instructions to remedy this. Go up top, click on resources then downloads and poke around 'til you locate it. If you cant find it I can email you a copy. I got it here while working on my own OD.